You mean I'm stuck like this?
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I don't think that's all that unreasonable. It's not like you have enough control (as a human being in 2014) over your body that you can physically grow wings and start flying around, you know? Maybe if we hit a technological singularity that will change.
There's a quote by John Lilly with some similarities:
"In the province of the mind what one believes to be true, either is true or becomes true within certain limits. These limits are to be found experimentally and experientially. When so found these limits turn out to be further beliefs to be transcended. In the province of the mind there are no limits. However, in the province of the body there are definite limits not to be transcended."
On the other hand I have experienced definite changes in my physical body from meditation and Reichian body work. I think you can change your body in that regard just as easily (or slowly, painfully) as you can change your mind. Also from Liber LXV:
"46. Also his body shook and staggered with the burden of that bliss and that excess and that ultimate nameless.
The Physical body, its nerves trying to react sympathetically to the experience, and being charged beyond their capacity is stricken.
This is one of the reasons why the Aspirant is urged again and again to increase the strength and health of his physical body. See the Tasks of the Grades, and See AL II.70"
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@bermatticus said
"Regarding this line: May be chosen at will before incarnation, and even then within limits. After incarnation, you are bound by your genetic limitations. You can do much, as in Initiate; but you are limited by your inherited combination of chromosomes.
What are your thoughts on the verse but as well as Motta's take on it? Can someone with experience chime it? "
Normally I would spend my time tip-toeing around not being inelegantly insulting of Motta, but I needn't do that here. I'm not totally sure of what you are really asking but, if I take your question completely at face value - "What do you think about these three sentences Motta wrote?" - I have to say they're pretty straightforward and on target.
He says there are choices made before incarnation, and then, once incarnated, we have the body we have (to which I would add: a body that emerged at a specific time and place, and thus constitutes a specific horoscope). These two things he said are pretty basic.
And, to the extent the last sentence might, in our lifetime, become untrue, it certainly wasn't true when he wrote it.
One area - based on knowledge not available for another 15-20 years after Motta died - is that RNA does modulate the manifestation of particular chromosomal patterns, and this gives a seeming contradiction to what he said. But it's not really a contradiction, if you take him simply and literally.
The traditional answer to "What, you don't like the body you have?" is that you should either (1) accept it anyway, (2) develop it better, within the range of its possibilities, or (3) build a better one next incarnation.
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Thanks Jim. You said eloquently what I wanted to say, but was having a hard time talking about Motta (or rather, his disciples, as I'd never met him).
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Samadhi experienced by the brain of a 75 IQ is not the same as that of a brain of 300 IQ.
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@Vadox said
"Samadhi experienced by the brain of a 75 IQ is not the same as that of a brain of 300 IQ.
"In this case it is like saying "all things are relative."
Let me give you a practical example you can experiment with on your own.
Eat a chili pepper.
Next day, suck on an ice cube for 30 seconds on your tongue. Eat a chili pepper.
Same experience? No.
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What is there to say about The Lord of Glory part. That's getting glossed over in this conversation.
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Not just the "Lord of Glory," but "the Lord of Glory *and *the unclean dog."
"(Crowley's comment) - . . . It is equally supreme and vile, these qualities being illusions produced by artificial relations. . ."
Does that get at your question?
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I've seen lot change to my mind and body as well through ritual, visualization, meditation as well as physical exercise. I guess my question for you guys is more along the lines of: After K&C of HGA, how much more control would an adept have over his physical body and his ego and/or personality that she/he was born with ? Wouldn't one have the tools at her disposal to rid oneself of a personality defect?
Also yes, I like that verse you included (36?). Perhaps I should save some of these questions until I've completed reading the entire Liber
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@Jim Eshelman said
"
@bermatticus said
"Regarding this line: May be chosen at will before incarnation, and even then within limits. After incarnation, you are bound by your genetic limitations. You can do much, as in Initiate; but you are limited by your inherited combination of chromosomes.What are your thoughts on the verse but as well as Motta's take on it? Can someone with experience chime it? "
Normally I would spend my time tip-toeing around not being inelegantly insulting of Motta, but I needn't do that here. I'm not totally sure of what you are really asking but, if I take your question completely at face value - "What do you think about these three sentences Motta wrote?" - I have to say they're pretty straightforward and on target.
He says there are choices made before incarnation, and then, once incarnated, we have the body we have (to which I would add: a body that emerged at a specific time and place, and thus constitutes a specific horoscope). These two things he said are pretty basic.
And, to the extent the last sentence might, in our lifetime, become untrue, it certainly wasn't true when he wrote it.
One area - based on knowledge not available for another 15-20 years after Motta died - is that RNA does modulate the manifestation of particular chromosomal patterns, and this gives a seeming contradiction to what he said. But it's not really a contradiction, if you take him simply and literally.
The traditional answer to "What, you don't like the body you have?" is that you should either (1) accept it anyway, (2) develop it better, within the range of its possibilities, or (3) build a better one next incarnation."
You got what was I asking. Your traditional answer was what I was after. I like options 1,2, and 3 but definitely the "(2)" option best and I plan to explore that option as I continue my work. Its the range of possibilities and I look forward to exploring. Thanks for the insight, Jim !
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EDIT: I think we're all on the same page on this, and hastily wrote it before fully reading all the responses, so apologies.
The content of this quote does seem to be true, but it seems to miss the spiritual elephant in the room that Context Is Everything.
We're all on the same page that you're given a basic set of characteristics within each incarnation that can then be developed and trained to a certain extent.
The one thing that isn't acknowledged here, that can totally alter one's perspective, that can take years of work to figure out, is that the horoscope is merely a vehicle that can, once we learn how it works, take us all the way up, using those very limitations themselves.
The symbol system of astrology, when mapped onto the sheer complexity and unpredictability and magnitude of daily life becomes not a limitation, but rather the lens and system through which we can experience and channel the infinite.For every limitation in one's life and character and situation, for every obstacle, there is (I would very nearly say Always) a compensating energy in the psyche that it turns out has been ignored and is actually the perfect tool to deal with a particular problem.
Once that full internal energy system of masculine and feminine, of the astrological chart, has been unearthed and you learn how to use all these new pathways, that is the moment you're ready to be a vessel for LVX. Once you've learned how the energy system of your incarnation functions, you can use it like water skis, compensating when necessary, finding karma yoga work that is best suited, etc.
The concept of the True Will shows that once we're on that thin line and know how to use our "water skis", the possibilities are literally endless. The whole idea of IQ and, indeed the whole sentiment of Motta's quote, reeks of competition, ordering, entitlement, "better than" to me.
There is always a way to manipulate your variables to do what you need to do. It's like statistics or writing a scientific study - you can make it say anything. This is where true intelligence comes out and true spiritual knowledge.
Just a short example - in my genetic makeup I'm prone to addiction, depression, and mild OCD. Turns out that this is the perfect cocktail for me to obssessively engage with the spiritual life and learn how to care about details, which in turn led me to obssessively examine the depression until I found the root causes (both individual and ancestral), and then finally reroute and unbind those energetic ties into healthy pathways.
Within the process of genetic expression there lies such a huge ocean of possibilities in the unfolding of one's world, that there is no reason other than a masochistic one to look at a genetic predisposition as a weakness.But to me, and this is preaching to the choir obviously, the perspective of which we look at such concepts matters so greatly that it's almost more important than the materialist truth itself. It's in our limitations that our true Infinite potential can come out.
And let's not forget that our bodies are nothing more than prana manifesting in the material realm. Sure it may take a while to biologically play out, but once we've cleaned out our nervous system and can control our prana, we really can reformulate our body to be whatever we need it to be, using genetics as a tool.
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Lemme add an option 4) no work and magick equally
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@Takamba said
"
@Vadox said
"Samadhi experienced by the brain of a 75 IQ is not the same as that of a brain of 300 IQ.
"In this case it is like saying "all things are relative."
Let me give you a practical example you can experiment with on your own.
Eat a chili pepper.
Next day, suck on an ice cube for 30 seconds on your tongue. Eat a chili pepper.
Same experience? No."
Oh, i got it. Its like having more sensitive finger tips
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@Vadox said
"Samadhi experienced by the brain of a 75 IQ is not the same as that of a brain of 300 IQ.
"A brain with a 75 IQ probably isn't capable of Samadhi.
I mean, I don't want to rule anything out a priori, but Samadhi takes enormous brain energies to pull off. It's not a cessation, not a nothing, but rather an everything. (It's a "noting on balance.")
Not everyone has the capacity in a given lifetime to attain Samadhi. Most don't, just like most don't have the capacity, no matter how they train, to do a 6' high jump.
This doesn't mean any of the practice is lost. "Live like you have eternity before you" since, well, you do!
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@frater aSP said
"Just a short example - in my genetic makeup I'm prone to addiction, depression, and mild OCD. Turns out that this is the perfect cocktail for me to obssessively engage with the spiritual life and learn how to care about details, which in turn led me to obssessively examine the depression until I found the root causes (both individual and ancestral), and then finally reroute and unbind those energetic ties into healthy pathways.
Within the process of genetic expression there lies such a huge ocean of possibilities in the unfolding of one's world, that there is no reason other than a masochistic one to look at a genetic predisposition as a weakness."Thank you for posting this. I too suffer from the maladies of depression and anxiety and have recovered from a life-threatening addiction. But I too have the bonus of redirecting all that obsessive energy towards Ritual, practice and study, intense exercise (running) which I would have never dreamed of being capable of in my previous life, AND at the current time directly most of my attention to getting to the root of my depression and anxiety. I would love to get off of the SRRI's I've been on for the past 20 years and with the help of my current therapist I'm beginning to become hopeful. It seems like the psyche drugs are becoming less and less effective.
93, 93/93 - Matt
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93 all,
"May be chosen at will before incarnation, and even then within limits. "
Examining this sentence brought me directly to tibetan buddhism. The process of being incarnated again, after a set of serious mistakes, that happens before you even get to the Womb-door.
[The ultimate success would be the Clear light of true Reality, which I take to mean Samadhi after death.]
Amongst the problems one faces when they get to the Womb door is enormous attraction to the images of male/female couples that eventually become your parents. I believe it is a magnetic, karmaic attraction to this couple and aware though you are, you experience your potential life after being concieved by this couple before you enter the Womb door. This includes all the positives and negatives about your body, mind, outlook, personality, horoscope, etc.
So, we are here to rectify the mistakes of our incarnation as best we can, and hopefully, if we are not able, incarnate ourselves in a better predicament next life in order to achieve the ultimate Samadhi upon death. -
A significant difference between historic Eastern views of reincarnation and the Thelemic view is that Thelema regards it not as punishment, not as failure, but as a choice. In a sense, you described it that way also, but I read the inference that it was from a failure or mistake. Thelema regards it entirely as choice.
Consider, for example, this 11th collect from The Thelemic Mass which (give or take a word or two) is identical to the same collect in Crowley's Gnostic Mass:
"Unto them from whose eyes the veil of physical life hath fallen, may there be granted the accomplishment of their true Wills; whether they will absorption in the Infinite, or to be united with their chosen and preferred, or to be in contemplation, or to be at peace, or to achieve the labor and heroism of incarnation on this planet or another, or in any Star, or aught else, unto them may there be granted the accomplishment of their wills; yea, the accomplishment of their wills."
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93,
Well, I believe the tibetan culture does have a death fixation, so to them, incarnation is a mistake.
However, this is in their terminology.
What is the Thelemic process of incarnation after death? In other words, who would choose to be born blind for example? Or choose to have an IQ of 75? -
There isn't a standard answer, but there are a lot off possible answers. One takes on limitations in order to grow, and one places oneself on the opposite side of an issue to increase understanding. Of course, some people do have a sense of self-punishment.
Jumpers wear heavy weights - which technically hold them back - to strengthen them to jump higher
When you live in eternity, a particular incarnation is just another day at the office, another day in the classroom.
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Yet in this classroom we are able to find our True Will as the dynamic expression of our innermost being and once this is done we realize that our problems are actually the lesson that we're to learn and should embrace it/them. So the end game is not another incarnation, once we are in perfect Samadhi...or do we come down again incarnate and crawl in the filth and deal with newer problems because that is what the universe has expressed for us?
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But this life is elegant and amazing, too.
There are many choices. Bodhisattvas are committed to continuing incarnation to assist in the liberation of others. Some move on. Some like to play here.
And Samadhi is hardly the threshold. Samadhi isn't all that hard. (It's a definite attainment, make no mistake; but it's not a be-all and end-all.) Of course, there are many grades or stages or types of Samadhi.