Jedi
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Is a Jedi Master considered to be greater than a Magister Templi?
And if so, would the homunculus Yoda be at least a Magus?
Hail Eris!
All Hail Discordia!! -
The Jedi are a work of fiction; so depending on which proclaimed Magister Templi you ask, the Jedi Master is either an equal or nothing at all.
If using the fictional Jedi Master as I understand it to compare with the various degree systems using Magister Templi in them, I'd say it varies. A Jedi Master must be at least an Exempt Adepti [Adeptus Exemptus 7°=4□], but is not reserved to just that "rank." Obviously Yoda (not a homunculus, but a natural born creature) was superior to Obi Wan; yet Obi Wan and Yoda were both "masters."
Preferably I go with my first statement above.
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So I suppose the Ipsissimus on the Dark Side of the Tree would have been the emperor, or maybe when they switch sides, they lose a rank, knowingly or unknowingly.
Yoda was definitely capable of being an Ipsissimus then. Obi-Wan, a Magus, and Luke, a Master after his final training and untold psychedelic experiences that may or may not have involved drinking Ayahuasca with Ewoks.
Hail Eris!
All Hail Discordia!! -
Treating these as if they were real people rather than fictions...
@ThelemicMage said
"Is a Jedi Master considered to be greater than a Magister Templi?"
The Jedis portrayed are not necessarily more than an Adeptus Major. In fact, that warrior-themed grade might be the best representation for them.
That level may not even be necessary. A full Jedi night is definitely more than a Neophyte, and a Zelator could be displaying many of the characteristics to fake it on a good day. There is nothing in the Jedis historically portrayed to suggest they've actually attained to the K&C of the HGA, so one could argue that they are less than Adeptus Minor in most cases. But (in the A.'.A.'. sense) Zelator is insufficient for the basic phenomena. An argument could be made that success in certain tasks of the Practicus are sufficient for truly forging one's "light-saber" within, as a necessary prerequisite to wielding it without (presuming we don't really know all the esoterica within the training of a Jedi Knight), which would mean that Philosophus is the lowest grade that would have met certain critieria.
All things considered, I am inclined to declare that the fictional characters called Jedi Knights require no less than the 4=7 level of attainment (A.'.A.'. scale) and would require no more than 6=5. The 5=6 grade itself has no relevance that's actually shown in the movies so far. I can think of other arguments that would require it be no less than a fulfilled Dominus Liminis, which throws me back to the 6=5 conclusion.
"And if so, would the homunculus Yoda be at least a Magus?"
Yoda isn't a homunculus. He most definitely has a soul.
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@ThelemicMage said
"So I suppose the Ipsissimus on the Dark Side of the Tree would have been the emperor, or maybe when they switch sides, they lose a rank, knowingly or unknowingly. "
"Ipsissimus on the Dark Side of the Tree"? I'd ask what that even means, but you'd probably answer
I'd place the emperor solidly at Adeptus Exemptus, likely then taking the path of the Black Brother rather than ascending to Magister Templi.
"Yoda was definitely capable of being an Ipsissimus then."
Perhaps by his death. But I'd say definitely a Magister Templi who accepted the creative function of a Magus.
"Obi-Wan, a Magus"
No, not at all. In his time in the desert of Tatooine, I'm pretty sure he attained Magister Templi, though we saw him go into exile no more than an Adeptus Major.
"and Luke, a Master after his final training and untold psychedelic experiences that may or may not have involved drinking Ayahuasca with Ewoks."
Luke by the end of Episode 6 is no more than an Adeptus Major 6=5, and that was forced and under duress. Luke at the end of Episode 4 is surely no more than a Zelator 2=9.
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Loved this!
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Cool
Well, thinking about sci-fi, Muad'Dib would be a Magister, if not a full Magus.
(I think that Thelemic Mage can appreciate the idea of a Magister on spice)
Bene Gesserit girls being strike me as Zelator level. -
[grinning ear to ear; smdh]
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Faust, if you read the whole Dune saga, Bene Gesserit sisterhood has much connection to Binah.
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Very interesting conversation, and all very spot-on, well-put and worded answers. I definitely have some stuff to think about now.
And Danica, if this is so, then might they also have association opposite in the "Lower Supernals", ie. a connection to Hod being Water in the inner temple?
And Thanks, Jim. It sounds like you were ready to answer this line of questioning.
And spice, with deeper experiences definitely leaves one at the gates of the Abyss, if not a little past them. Maybe this is why people report having "child-like" symptoms at higher doses. ie: perceiving lanky, short limbs, big head, on one's self. Also re-living childhood memories. So I can definitely see the bridging of the Abyss by spice. And of course to the idea of a Magister -- spice seems to be a Water Spirit Molecule.
The tree that Confucius sat under.. Acacia Confusca.. check that one out for some interesting reading!
Hail Eris!
All Hail Discordia!! -
@ThelemicMage said
"And Danica, if this is so, then might they also have association opposite in the "Lower Supernals", ie. a connection to Hod being Water in the inner temple?"
They certainly had power of control of voice, but I'm not inclined to think of them as Hod at all. I didn't object to the Y'sod comments earlier because that was the field of most of their evident expression and hits a certain subtle note... but, at root, I agree with Danica on both their level and where they stood in the overall society.
"And Thanks, Jim. It sounds like you were ready to answer this line of questioning."
Yes, i.e., I made it up on the spot.
"And spice, with deeper experiences definitely leaves one at the gates of the Abyss if not a little past them. "
Or just Tav. Remember, the main thing that made spice so valuable economically was that it enabled navigation from subspace. It gives the ability to perceive the fabric of the universe from a point of view abstracted to it. That's basically the success of Tav. (It even integrates the worm symbolism.) So nothing close to the Abyss per se.
"Maybe this is why people report having "child-like" symptoms at higher doses. ie: perceiving lanky, short limbs, big head, on one's self. Also re-living childhood memories."
That would be so not the Abyss but, rather, something very low on the Tree, with Y'sod being a particularly pure expression.
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@ThelemicMage said
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And Danica, if this is so, then might they also have association opposite in the "Lower Supernals", ie. a connection to Hod being Water in the inner temple?
"Sure, but it's just one expression of their overall nature & function.
Consider various aspects of their training and abilities in light of other Sephirot below Abyss and you'll find obvious correspondences for each.
Also, it's interesting to see how the sisterhood itself evolves through the relationship with the other, "negative" sisterhood of Honored Matres, which appeared out of "the scattering". These Honored Matres are in essence Bene Gesserit's offspring from the interaction of the sisterhood (via various individual sisters) with the Unknown, the Chaotic (Binah interacting with Chokmah).BTW, my favourite character is king Leto, the God-emperor. He seems like a primarily Chesed-based character: the great architect of humanity's further growth and evolution. And his death, as Herbert depicted it, nicely fits to the self-undoing that an Exempt Adept goes through.
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Aside...
In the mid-'70s, before I was taking magical mottos, I picked Leto as the name of my idealized (perfected) self. Yes, I had him mind.
Note Lamed Heh Teyth Vav = 50 fwiw.
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Now that I think about it, you're very right about that, Jim. Elves wouldn't really abound around the Abyss. They are perceived as elves for a reason I guess, instead of being perceived as flying serpents or wheels. (Though I must mention one famous mushroom experience in the bible of one of a certain old testament prophet having legitimate visions of Auphanim, Seraphim, and Kerubim.
But the mushroom is an expanse of the spice. Like a "group effort" I suppose one could say.
Hail Eris!
All Hail Discordia!! -
Well, my conclusion from this discussion: Zelator grade looks really interesting!
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Hey, what about Vader?
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Classic Black Brother. A solid adept who let fear overpower love, and kept ego direct his path deeper into the force but farther from the Jewish path.
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We must sacrifice the Emperor to Azazel!
Hail Eris!
All Hail Discordia!! -
I quote Brother Jim Eshelman "A Black Brother is an Adeptus Exemptus 7=4 who resists and pulls back from the Ordeal of the Abyss when it is presented." I rest my case.
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I have a strong suspicious to believe that the user JJ is a "black brother."
The only evidence I have is his smooth yet dominant role on "Good Times".
What should we do?
Hail Eris!
All Hail Discordia!!