multiple rituals and visualization confusion, and other...
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so i have some pretty basic questions, so i apologize in advance, but i havent seen them specifically addressed anywhere, and iv'e searched a lot. i was practicing daily LBRP's and middle pillars for a while, and i really liked the affects they had. I lapsed in practice for quite a while do to a job i had where i was working a ridiculous amount, after i was no longer working there i decided to take up ritual again, i read a ton of different stuff and i ended up being extremely confused, and it threw my rituals off. i would greatly appreciate some solid answers to the questions i have. several of the questions will be a bit ahead of me, but i dont want to keep asking basic questions so i figure ill just ask them all at once.
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If you perform the LBRP and then say a LBRH would you continue visualizing the Pentagrams and draw the Hexagrams over them, or would you completely end the visualization of the LBRP, pentagrams/archangels etc and then perform the LBRH ( I've read peoples ritual descriptions and it seems people do both??)
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how exactly is one supposed to end the LBRP as a standalone practice, just stop visualizing everything? (the reason i ask is that lately when i do it, when i walk out of the circle as soon as i cross the line i feel "drained, whereas i felt great before i left, i didnt used to have this problem so idk?)
3.after performing the QC do you maintain the visualization of being in space and the cross of light while you draw the pentagrams, or do you end that visualization and then draw the pentagrams? (probably should have been my first question lol)
4 if one were to perform say and lbrp, lirp, then lbrp would it go
- qc,lbrp,qc - qc, lirp, qc - qc, lbrp, qc
or - qc,lbrp,qc,lirp,qc,lbrp,qc (i think its this one but i'm not sure)
or - qc,lbrp,lirp,lbrp,qc
- if one is working with the lbrp with the elemental pentagrams -lbrp lirp(of earth) then lbrp(of earth)- is it still necessary to end with the regular(non elemental) lbrp?
Middle pillar
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in The middle pillar by israel regardie, on page 74 he states that daath should be four inches in diameter, however in the diagram all of the spheres are the same size. in the art of true healing he states that daath should encompass even the eyebrows, but the diagram he gives shows it covering only the throat and the mouth?? what the hell am i supposed to be doing here lol? are all the sepheroth the same size? is daath smaller or bigger than the others?
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is it necessary or beneficial to begin and and the mpr with the qc?
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does one need to end the mpr with the LBRP
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will sandwiching the mpr between qc's nullify the affects of the planetary banishing and invoking methods regardie gives at the end of "the art of true healing"
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will using the lbrp after the planetary method mentioned above nullify whatever practical affects you are seeking?
thank you guys very much, and sorry about all the noob questions lol.
on an unrelated note, ive noticed that after chakra work, everything looks more "3d". anyone experience anything similar?
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@Irenicus said
"If you perform the LBRP and then say a LBRH would you continue visualizing the Pentagrams and draw the Hexagrams over them, or would you completely end the visualization of the LBRP, pentagrams/archangels etc and then perform the LBRH ( I've read peoples ritual descriptions and it seems people do both??)"
You let the visualizations fade and do the next thing. The effect of what you did remains.
"how exactly is one supposed to end the LBRP as a standalone practice, just stop visualizing everything? (the reason i ask is that lately when i do it, when i walk out of the circle as soon as i cross the line i feel "drained, whereas i felt great before i left, i didnt used to have this problem so idk?)"
"Just stop" gives the impression of rushing. Don't rush. Take a moment to enjoy the end of the ritual, turn your attention away from the visualizations, feel your body etc. It's common to give the Sign of Silence afterwards; it helps.
"after performing the QC do you maintain the visualization of being in space and the cross of light while you draw the pentagrams, or do you end that visualization and then draw the pentagrams?"
You turn your attention away from that and towards the drawing of the circle.
"if one were to perform say and lbrp, lirp, then lbrp would it go
- qc,lbrp,qc - qc, lirp, qc - qc, lbrp, qc
or - qc,lbrp,qc,lirp,qc,lbrp,qc (i think its this one but i'm not sure)
or - qc,lbrp,lirp,lbrp,qc"
It's up to you. Technically the QC is part of the specific ritual. On the other hand, if you feel it's redundant to do it twice in a row, I see no reason to force it that way.
"if one is working with the lbrp with the elemental pentagrams -lbrp lirp(of earth) then lbrp(of earth)- is it still necessary to end with the regular(non elemental) lbrp?"
Not necessary, no, but if you're unsure it won't hurt to do it for good measure.
"in The middle pillar by israel regardie, on page 74 he states that daath should be four inches in diameter, however in the diagram all of the spheres are the same size. in the art of true healing he states that daath should encompass even the eyebrows, but the diagram he gives shows it covering only the throat and the mouth?? what the hell am i supposed to be doing here lol? are all the sepheroth the same size? is daath smaller or bigger than the others?"
There are different teachings, and in this case, different purposes. I don't remember this detail in TAOTH.
Keeping it simple: Kether is brighter and bigger. I haven't done the MP for quite a while, but I wouldn't make the Daath center bigger than the others, only Kether. I don't remember seeing this described anywhere and may have missed it.
"is it necessary or beneficial to begin and and the mpr with the qc?"
Necessary, no. Doint at the end is a good way to distribute the energy.
"does one need to end the mpr with the LBRP"
No.
"will sandwiching the mpr between qc's nullify the affects of the planetary banishing and invoking methods regardie gives at the end of "the art of true healing""
I really don't remember that, but whatever it is, I see no reason it would.
"will using the lbrp after the planetary method mentioned above nullify whatever practical affects you are seeking?"
Since I don't remember that I make no comment one way or the other.
- qc,lbrp,qc - qc, lirp, qc - qc, lbrp, qc
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For the most part I'd agree with Patriel, adding the following footnotes.
I definitely and consciously end all stand-alone practices with a Sign of Silence and consciously refrain from inserting one at the end of any ritual that is part of a larger series or practice. I do, however, take a moment at the end of those constituent rituals to pause and burn into my inner vision everything that has just been created. For the Pentagram Rituals, this occurs for me during the final AMN of the closing QC. The specific visualizations are very different depending on whether its an invoking or banishing ritual, but that moment allows for all of them asa complex and interlocking pattern to reestablish themselves in my inner vision before I allow them to fade from attention.
For that reason, it does seem to me to be necessary to put a QC at beginning and end, even when I'm performing a few in a row. Though they use the same gestures and words, each of the four QCs (beginning/end, invoking/banishing) perform a different function and resonate with different symbolism. In order to avoid performing two QCs back-to-back and falling into the trap of rote repetition, I've taken Crowley's advice that practicing the god-form of Harpocrates is equally important and inserted a few moments of that between Pentagram rituals in lieu of a Sign of Silence. I see this as a way of banishing the extraneous (LBRP), creating the form (Harpocrates in the Hermetic Egg), and then invoking the power that animates it (LIRP) for whatever my continued work is going to be.
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Seriously, Thank you guys
especially you Patriel.There are different teachings, and in this case, different purposes. I don't remember this detail in TAOTH.
on page 5 of TAOTH ** The Air Center** "having let the mind rest here(kether) for some five minutes, when it will be seen to glow and scintillate, imagine that it emits a white shaft through the skull and brain, stopping at the throat. here it expands to form a second ball of light which should include a large part of the face, up to and including the eyebrows. If the larynx is conceived to be the center... etc"
just referencing what i was talking about. doesn't really matter though
"Since I don't remember that I make no comment one way or the other."
its on page 11 under the heading "Using the Astrological Structure giving a list of planetary influences and positive or negative colors, and the divine name ruling each.
say if you wanted to obtain a book, which falls under mercury(positive color yellow, negative orange), you would at regular intervals perform the middle pillar then focus on the appropriate color, which would be orange, so that your aura changes to that color, then you repeatedly vibrate the divine name ruling that planet until it seems mercurial forces are converging on the magnetism of your sphere, attracting the books you need, or whatever you're doing the technique for.
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"For that reason, it does seem to me to be necessary to put a QC at beginning and end, even when I'm performing a few in a row. Though they use the same gestures and words, each of the four QCs (beginning/end, invoking/banishing) perform a different function and resonate with different symbolism. In order to avoid performing two QCs back-to-back and falling into the trap of rote repetition, I've taken Crowley's advice that practicing the god-form of Harpocrates is equally important and inserted a few moments of that between Pentagram rituals in lieu of a Sign of Silence. I see this as a way of banishing the extraneous (LBRP), creating the form (Harpocrates in the Hermetic Egg), and then invoking the power that animates it (LIRP) for whatever my continued work is going to be.
"thank you for your insight Gnosomai. i am a little confused though, i thought the sign of silence and the sign of Harpocrates were the same thing
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I think the spheres are larger in there because it's for healing purposes, so the idea is to have more energy available. (Half guessing.)
On the other technique, the LBRP shouldn't negate its effects if you've sufficiently impregnated yourself with those energies.
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@Irenicus said
"thank you for your insight Gnosomai. i am a little confused though, i thought the sign of silence and the sign of Harpocrates were the same thing
"They would be the same Sign but, when I practice, I visualize the god-form (Liber O, sec.III, 1-2). My physical body remains standing in a relaxed, neutral stance (yoga's Mountain Pose or Tadasana) while I visualize something like the image of Harpocrates/Hoor-Paar-Kraat on the Aeon card, adding in a crocodile under his feet and a Hermetic or Orphic Egg enclosing him. That image contains the Sign of Silence but my physical body doesn't perform it.
It might just be my own idiosyncrasy, but keeping that physical Sign until the end of my practice allows me to build one ritual on top of the next and compound the energies.
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@Irenicus said
"1. If you perform the LBRP and then say a LBRH would you continue visualizing the Pentagrams and draw the Hexagrams over them, or would you completely end the visualization of the LBRP, pentagrams/archangels etc and then perform the LBRH ( I've read peoples ritual descriptions and it seems people do both??)"
It depends. Generally not: What one normally wants is to be totally in the moment of what one is doing, and then go on from there to the next thing. But there could be special cases where, for example, you were building a specific astral temple and embedding particular things in different parts of its surface (so to speak), and then you would be actively constructing something and would want to keep all of its parts.
But, generally not.
PS - The things created are still there. You just needn't consciously visualize them.
"2. how exactly is one supposed to end the LBRP as a standalone practice, just stop visualizing everything?"
Pretty much, yeah.
"(the reason i ask is that lately when i do it, when i walk out of the circle as soon as i cross the line i feel "drained, whereas i felt great before i left, i didnt used to have this problem so idk?)"
Two things I observe here.
First, in doing a standard pentagram ritual, one isn't usually "casting a circle." There are specific practices for demarcating a physical space, and specific uses of the pentagram ritual to mark out a physical spacd, but this isn't usual. It's important to develop the technique (aided, more than anything, by keeping your arm completely straight from shoulder socket to finger tips) of tracing the pentagrams and connecting circle at an infinite distance. Then there is no line to cross - ever. OTOH if you are specifically using the ritual to mark out a particular physical space, then you should take it down after.
The second thing to say is that any time a ritual leaves you feeling drained or depleted, there's a really good chance you're doing something wrong. (So, good to ask questions like you're doing!)
"3.after performing the QC do you maintain the visualization of being in space and the cross of light while you draw the pentagrams, or do you end that visualization and then draw the pentagrams? (probably should have been my first question lol)"
No, let it go. It's not that it goes away etc., and it may sometimes wander back into your attention (though I rarely find that happening), it's just that you are then putting your attention elsewhere.
"4 if one were to perform say and lbrp, lirp, then lbrp would it go
- qc,lbrp,qc - qc, lirp, qc - qc, lbrp, qc
or - qc,lbrp,qc,lirp,qc,lbrp,qc (i think its this one but i'm not sure)
or - qc,lbrp,lirp,lbrp,qc"
It depends. Are these the only things you're doing, or are you doing something in between? What's the purpose of doing it this way rather than, say, doing the banishing in the morning and the invoking before bed? What's the purpose of all of this, in other words?
"5. if one is working with the lbrp with the elemental pentagrams -lbrp lirp(of earth) then lbrp(of earth)- is it still necessary to end with the regular(non elemental) lbrp?"
I don't understand the question, i.e., have no idea what you are describing. A ritual in which you use the invoking then banishing pentagrams of each of the elements, one after the other, is that what you're talking about? Perhaps I'm missing something?
"Middle pillar
- in The middle pillar by israel regardie, on page 74 he states that daath should be four inches in diameter, however in the diagram all of the spheres are the same size. in the art of true healing he states that daath should encompass even the eyebrows, but the diagram he gives shows it covering only the throat and the mouth?? what the hell am i supposed to be doing here lol? are all the sepheroth the same size? is daath smaller or bigger than the others?"
There are variations on the ritual. Pick one, decide what you're going to trust for the present, and go with it. Remember that Regardie invented the Middle Pillar Ritual, that Art of True Healing was one of the first places he wrote of it, and that he was recommending it for a different purpose there than in other parts of his work.
7. is it necessary or beneficial to begin and and the mpr with the qc?
Most often, precede the Middle Pillar Ritual with the Pentagram Ritual.As for ending, the energy of a Middle Pillar needs to be circulated. If you are doing one or more of the assigned circulations, that takes care of it. If not, then a Qabbalistic Cross is a pretty good way to distribute the energy through your aura. Otherwise, no particular need.
"8. does one need to end the mpr with the LBRP"
No.
"9. will sandwiching the mpr between qc's nullify the affects of the planetary banishing and invoking methods regardie gives at the end of "the art of true healing" "
It's been too many decades since I've read that book, so I can't give a "fer shoor" answer about the specifics. Generally, no, it doesn't nullify anything, but I don't have the details you mention in mind.
"10. will using the lbrp after the planetary method mentioned above nullify whatever practical affects you are seeking?"
No, but it will take you out of the space you have the kind of awareness you had before. Generally, one always wants to "close shop," so after performing a work of practical magick, banish all of the invoked forces. (Since you used the word "practical," I'll take you literally on that.) - For a more subtle working, you have to experiment and find out.
- qc,lbrp,qc - qc, lirp, qc - qc, lbrp, qc
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@Gnosomai Emauton said
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@Irenicus said
"thank you for your insight Gnosomai. i am a little confused though, i thought the sign of silence and the sign of Harpocrates were the same thing"They would be the same Sign but, when I practice, I visualize the god-form (Liber O, sec.III, 1-2). My physical body remains standing in a relaxed, neutral stance (yoga's Mountain Pose or Tadasana) while I visualize something like the image of Harpocrates/Hoor-Paar-Kraat on the Aeon card, adding in a crocodile under his feet and a Hermetic or Orphic Egg enclosing him. That image contains the Sign of Silence but my physical body doesn't perform it.
It might just be my own idiosyncrasy, but keeping that physical Sign until the end of my practice allows me to build one ritual on top of the next and compound the energies."
I see. thank you for explaining
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"It depends. Generally not: What one normally wants is to be totally in the moment of what one is doing, and then go on from there to the next thing. But there could be special cases where, for example, you were building a specific astral temple and embedding particular things in different parts of its surface (so to speak), and then you would be actively constructing something and would want to keep all of its parts.
But, generally not.
PS - The things created are still there. You just needn't consciously visualize them."
sweet. got it.
"Two things I observe here.
First, in doing a standard pentagram ritual, one isn't usually "casting a circle." There are specific practices for demarcating a physical space, and specific uses of the pentagram ritual to mark out a physical spacd, but this isn't usual. It's important to develop the technique (aided, more than anything, by keeping your arm completely straight from shoulder socket to finger tips) of tracing the pentagrams and connecting circle at an infinite distance. Then there is no line to cross - ever. OTOH if you are specifically using the ritual to mark out a particular physical space, then you should take it down after.
The second thing to say is that any time a ritual leaves you feeling drained or depleted, there's a really good chance you're doing something wrong. (So, good to ask questions like you're doing!)"
ok i kind of get this but... hmmm. well when i draw the pentagrams and the line connecting them, a goldish white haze, very faint(not the white/blue visualization) follows my fingertips, and the pentagrams, when im done drawing them can be seen as a goldish haze, although not as a distinct pentagram, just as an area that is hazy gold. the archangels can be seen this way as well (although again, not in any detailed way). its also a lot easier to see if its dark. is this incorrect/does this mean i am accidently defining a limited circle?
you know now that i think about it i never had that particular problem(not the haze but leaving the lbrp) until i read Frater U.D.'s High MAGICK. Near the beginning of the book he basically equates the lbrp with casting a circle and says you should never leave it and regard it as an impenetrable barrier etc
"It depends. Are these the only things you're doing, or are you doing something in between? What's the purpose of doing it this way rather than, say, doing the banishing in the morning and the invoking before bed? What's the purpose of all of this, in other words?"
well my main question was how many QC's are necessary in a series of pentagram rituals- i.e. if the second QC of the lbrp negated the requirement of performing it before an immediately following lirp. as to why i would perform that particular ritual sequence(when i practiced before), well there are various reasons.
- is simply to learn the ins and outs of them-for practice and to experience the differences in the lbrp and the lirp
- sometimes i would put a middle pillar after the lirp for a little added "juice"
- i would do it to absorb some of the energy from the lirp, but i would have to banish afterwords because if i didnt banish and went about my day i would be kind of "tempermental" i guess. stuff that regularly wouldnt bother me would end up annoying the crap out of me
- also i guess because my first magic book was Modern Magick by DMK, and in his book everything is sandwitched between lbrp's
- its worth mentioning that i dont have a place set aside exclusively for ritual, so i would always banish before doing other ritual work.
"I don't understand the question, i.e., have no idea what you are describing. A ritual in which you use the invoking then banishing pentagrams of each of the elements, one after the other, is that what you're talking about? Perhaps I'm missing something?"
sorry if i wasnt clear. what i meant was, say i want to meditate on the earth element. i begin with a standard lbrp (since i dont have a temple, and to get into the right state of mind) then use the elemental version of the lirp to invoke earth in order to experience it and meditate on it, then use the lbrp of the element earth to banish it, is it still necessary or desirable to close with a regular(non elemental) lbrp?
"There are variations on the ritual. Pick one, decide what you're going to trust for the present, and go with it. Remember that Regardie invented the Middle Pillar Ritual, that Art of True Healing was one of the first places he wrote of it, and that he was recommending it for a different purpose there than in other parts of his work.
- is it necessary or beneficial to begin and and the mpr with the qc?
Most often, precede the Middle Pillar Ritual with the Pentagram Ritual.
As for ending, the energy of a Middle Pillar needs to be circulated. If you are doing one or more of the assigned circulations, that takes care of it. If not, then a Qabbalistic Cross is a pretty good way to distribute the energy through your aura. Otherwise, no particular need."
Awesome. I decided to work with the version in The Middle Pillar, the Balance Between Mind and Magic
I had one more question i forgot to ask earlier. somewhere i read that the only metals that should be present in the ritual area are the consecrated tools because metal absorbs etheric energy. in the room i practice in there is a light with metal on its case on the ceiling in the center of the room, directly above me when i practice. will this make any difference? if it matters at all its like two feet above my head.
Thanks a ton for answering my questions
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@Irenicus said
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"I don't understand the question, i.e., have no idea what you are describing. A ritual in which you use the invoking then banishing pentagrams of each of the elements, one after the other, is that what you're talking about? Perhaps I'm missing something?"sorry if i wasnt clear. what i meant was, say i want to meditate on the earth element. i begin with a standard lbrp (since i dont have a temple, and to get into the right state of mind) then use the elemental version of the lirp to invoke earth in order to experience it and meditate on it, then use the lbrp of the element earth to banish it, is it still necessary or desirable to close with a regular(non elemental) lbrp?"
No, it isn't.
"I had one more question i forgot to ask earlier. somewhere i read that the only metals that should be present in the ritual area are the consecrated tools because metal absorbs etheric energy. in the room i practice in there is a light with metal on its case on the ceiling in the center of the room, directly above me when i practice. will this make any difference? if it matters at all its like two feet above my head."
The metals thing is a pagan tradition. In certain northern traditions, it is held that metal negates magick. I think it likely emerged as an Osirian Aeon concept to explain or persuade that a warrior class didn't have anything to fear from magick - that emerging technology (from the forging of metals to the latest mobile electronic device) could dispel magick. Remember, any metalworking counts as "technology," in contrast to a totally natural "hunting and gathering" way, so when magick was defined in terms of nature and defending itself against the encroachment of "technology," this was a reasonable, fearful view.
As far as I can tell, its complete bullshit, though. No one with fillings in their teeth could ever do magick if it were true. No one with healthy iron levels in their blood. And we use many, many metal things in magick, aside from the fact, that you point out, that most people work where there are light fixtures, wires running through the walls, etc. And we're post-Osirian now, so there's no political reason to keep leveraging the nature vs. technology, instincts vs. intellect war.
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@Irenicus said
"has anyone here played baldur's gate 2? does anyone find it hilarious that a guy named Irenicus is asking these questions?
"Did you know we have a whole set of Baldur's Gate avatars you can choose from on this forum? Click User Control Panel | Profile | Edit Avatar | Display Gallary, and pick the BG gallery.
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Well, Jim explained the LBRP and "casting a circle" versus projecting a circle that reaches into infinity.
I wanted to add, though, that it may be helpful to experiment with thinking of yourself as the column of that circle. Where you go, it goes. Forward becomes "Temple East," if not true East, at all times.
Raphael before me, not to the East of me, etc.
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@Jim Eshelman said
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@Irenicus said
"has anyone here played baldur's gate 2? does anyone find it hilarious that a guy named Irenicus is asking these questions?"Did you know we have a whole set of Baldur's Gate avatars you can choose from on this forum? Click User Control Panel | Profile | Edit Avatar | Display Gallary, and pick the BG gallery."
ooh i see. sweet. I thought about choosing "Irenicus" as my magical name, because of its connotations of extreme magical skill and ability, but it also brings to mind the words "insane" and "sociopath" so i didnt think it would really be the best lol.
"Well, Jim explained the LBRP and "casting a circle" versus projecting a circle that reaches into infinity.
I wanted to add, though, that it may be helpful to experiment with thinking of yourself as the column of that circle. Where you go, it goes. Forward becomes "Temple East," if not true East, at all times.
Raphael before me, not to the East of me, etc."
thanks dude i'll try it out.
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As a general answer i'd say work on the kabbala of your training. By that i mean when you have many questions like this, assign them layers and hierarchy. Connect them to your whole path always. By itself it is a very important part of the great work for all things. The all is one. Though to make it possible that all things are continuous and harmonuous, the Law adjusted them all from top to bottom, all in relationship to every other.
Everything is true, but not everything is useful. How to apply this here? From the highest meditative state you can achieve, go down, while maintenaning the consciousness of the observed thing. When continuity is broken, go back and try again, until it gets continuous.
It is a way, or a part of it, among many others. Everything is true also means everything is optimal for its own purpose and nature. Therefore, exactly ALL WAYS of practice will produce specific OPTIMAL results. So the question is what is optimal for you now. To this assign layers. Then apply again solve and coagula.
Establishing the all in all things, everything is always there. It is a matter of proportion and rythms. This you can start with yin and yang, 3, and 4.
Classify different types of rituals according to different perspectives. Or to schools, or worlds, or whatever you might find useful for your own current actual practice.
A basic way to apply yin and yang here can be for instance to practice a physical version and an astral one. Then work on astral manifestation from physical perspective and vice versa. Focus on the different worlds at play and the respective body layers. Thus you will answer a tremendous amount of this. Questions are infinite. To answer practice. To practice good make it simple. Combine complex and simple. Practice separetely(with emphasis on specific part) then expand. Or balance. All are good.What is sure is if you keep on practicing a couple of rituals seriously you will have good results.
When confused dont mix up things. Just practice a couple of rituals as you choose to follow, and nothing will be wasted, whatever your later preferences might become. The guys are all right, and so are their rituals. Their is no such thing as "right" or "wrong". A ritual is exactly as it is, what could be said more? Is greek more right than hebrew? Just practice as they are and you'll get each layer of answer at each optimal time for you.
As for "metal" i see it as a very holy thing. It is the most classic material for building the cup and the sword, and the ring, and the spear, all great symbols. It can be seen as corresponding to ether, and the great work completed. The philosophers stone. It is also good for talisman. Very powerful. Of course it could be programmed as a black talisman, charged with evil forces.
As most people are of very low level in magick and dont master the projection of their forces, they charge things all the time with evil forces. By repetition, even if it is of low power, it can increase, and thus you can get "evil" objects. Then the object itself may attract independently all sorts of evil beings and so on.