776 1/2 nonviolative of another's TW
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@Jim Eshelman said
"Much of the time, you do know this, just as a matter of common sense. That is, it's pretty obvious if you are overtly damaging another person, {*******} with their life in the normal sense, that you're treading on their turf.."
Yeah I suppose if a particular person is involved within the actual intent then this is a narrowing of, well everything. This is therefore an attempt to restrict Nuit who is infinite. Not good. In other words magical intention should be general concepts.
@Jim Eshelman said
"In any case, from the purpose of the ritual you are undertaking (rather than social engineering purposes), the real value is that you struggle mightily with this, that you forge yourself into a person who has a wider perspective than yourself ."
Yes as above i.e. what I just wrote.
@Jim Eshelman said
"It also draws up into your face shadow content that would otherwise sabotage your operation. That is, some part of you, either conscious or barely below the surface, knows whether you're {*******} with somebody else. You are empowered by staring this in the face and not leaving it to blindside you recoil in self-punishment."
Thanks Jim.
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However, commanding Bartzabel. This is fucking with someone by dint of who Bartzabel is. That's his job is it not? A person may attack us and we then use Bartzabel to fulfill our drive for vengeance. Likewise some organization may attack us so if our attitude is don't fuck with people and their True Wills then why is Geburah there on the Tree?
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The bottom line for me, though, is whether or not you're willing for the same thing to happen to you. If the will to curse consumes you to the point where are you no longer even care if the same thing happens to you, then it may very well be an act of Will. It may just be ordained, or it may be ordained that you learned through making this kind of mistake. You don't get to know beforehand. It may just all bounce back and hit you, leaving the intended unaffected. Likewise, it could also be just, ordained, and have a devastating effect. Or it could nail you both.
If it's really that big a deal to you, you don't get to know beforehand. You do and you learn.
Of course, I'm also kind of screwed up. So take it all with a grain of salt.
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Vengeance is rarely a right motive, and its pursuit damages us, distorting us from our own Will.
G'boorah's purest expression is not vengeance but Justice, Diyn. By definition, Justice us a restoration of a higher order in which all Wills flow more freely and rightly.
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@Hermitas said
"There... Did you see how brutal, uncertain, and dangerous my possible outcomes sounded compared to how wise Jim sounded?
Yeah. That."
Ok, cool...speaking of which...
@Jim Eshelman said
"Vengeance is rarely a right motive, and its pursuit damages us, distorting us from our own Will.
G'boorah's purest expression is not vengeance but Justice, Diyn. By definition, Justice us a restoration of a higher order in which all Wills flow more freely and rightly."
So Justice for all. In short someone who is not that close to their HGA wouldn't understand any of this?
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Just to clear some things up for any wide-eyed innocents out there. I've never sat down and structured an actual ritual to curse someone. The thought disgusts and disturbs me; though, once I was sorely tempted and asked all these same questions. But I am no innocent either. I know the power of the creative word, and I don't think I'm the only one guilty of damning this lawn mower or that darkened edge of furniture in the night. Occasionally, it has been pointed at a person or group. I do now take medication to help with that temper. But I note that after you give in and curse a thing in anger, you have some time afterward where you either take it back or push it forward. I have been so abused before that I did push it forward. It has never not bitten me back, and it has never to my knowledge had the intended effect. In fact, its ultimate effect has been to reintroduce this post-Christian Thelemite to the power of forgiveness.
I did successfully achieve justice once. It cut both ways too. There was a lesson for me as well.
Anyway... Fwiw
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@Hermitas said
"Just to clear some things up for any wide-eyed innocents out there. I've never sat down and structured an actual ritual to curse someone. The thought disgusts and disturbs me; though, once I was sorely tempted and asked all these same questions. But I am no innocent either. I know the power of the creative word, and I don't think I'm the only one guilty of damning this lawn mower or that darkened edge of furniture in the night. Occasionally, it has been pointed at a person or group. I do now take medication to help with that temper. But I note that after you give in and curse a thing in anger, you have some time afterward where you either take it back or push it forward. I have been so abused before that I did push it forward. It has never not bitten me back, and it has never to my knowledge had the intended effect. In fact, its ultimate effect has been to reintroduce this post-Christian Thelemite to the power of forgiveness.
I did successfully achieve justice once. It cut both ways too. There was a lesson for me as well.
Anyway... Fwiw"
Christianity and Thelema are not that really happy stable mates. If you want proof then read Crowley's Liber Al comments where he employs a lot of Nietzscean references. As I said in the OP, Satanism is all about the hex and Nietzsche ie they say why deny our own natural animal hatred? Why turn the other cheek? Is that not slave-morality? Therefore get hexing those who hurt you? That's their attitude but this forum is about Thelema not Satanism.
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Okay, no... I'll try not to be defensive and actually answer your question.
I think we have the freedom of the Child to learn ...everything.
I have learned a thing or two about forsaking my Christian programming about forgiveness. I did feel crippled by it, hindered, restricted, weakened, boxed up. I broke that conditioning, and... wow... I became a huge asshole, for one. For another, truly damning someone else really does seem to cut both ways and seems to make me literally go insane while it seemingly has no effect on others.
So, in the end, I don't see any contradiction between saying both:
- You are not prohibited.
- You will learn that it fucking hurts and sucks.
I'm just going to be that guy that ends up saying that forgiveness does seem to actually be (from personal experience) the more psychologically healthy and safe response. And if you just can't stand it, and it just seems like forgiveness is going to be the weak option that "allows evil to flourish," then call for Justice instead. But know that unless you're perfect, it will probably cut you too.
I don't have anything else to say about it. I don't know everything. But this response will probably make my earlier response make more sense for some.
I believe we are all free to learn for ourselves.
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@gerry456 said
"Christianity and Thelema are not that really happy stable mates. If you want proof then read Crowley's Liber Al comments where he employs a lot of Nietzscean references. As I said in the OP, Satanism is all about the hex and Nietzsche ie they say why deny our own natural animal hatred? Why turn the other cheek? Is that not slave-morality? Therefore get hexing those who hurt you? That's their attitude but this forum is about Thelema not Satanism."
I don't think turning the other cheek would be slave morality. Slave morality would be considering, in the first place, the idea that something else has power over you.
A quote from Nietzsche himself (Zarathustra): "I love the great despisers, because they are the great adorers, and arrows of longing for the other shore."
What I like about Thelema is the idea of the Aeon of Horus. There is nothing to take revenge for in the first place: your original impulse and highest aspiration were never wrong.
A lot of this easy is to say philosophically, and difficult to do practically.
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@Hermitas said
" For another, truly damning someone else really does seem to cut both ways and seems to make me literally go insane while it seemingly has no effect on others. "
I never cursed or damned anyone yet even the feeling of hatred, not like I hate this man/woman but as in I want to rip his eyeballs and play ping pong with them, damages the person deeply. When I feel angry, my heartrate increases, I can't sleep or think or rest. However, the subject of that hatred doesn't give two damn about anything. Forgiving or forgetting doesn't suit me well but I remember Levi wrote something like
" Thus, the Great Master revealed a mystery of positive magical science when He said: “Forgive your enemies, do good to those that hate you; so, shall ye heap coals of fire upon their heads.” Perhaps this kind of pardon may seem hypocrisy and bear a strong likeness to refined vengeance. But we must remember that the Magus is sovereign, and a sovereign never avenges, because he has the right to punish; in the exercise of this right he performs his duty and is implacable as justice. "
Though honestly, I don't know how can I punish since I’m not a magus yet and thus not a sovereign. It would be lovely I guess
