College of Thelema: Thelemic Education

thanks for all your replies Jim.

My main concern is with establishing the elemental correspondence within the Enochian system and the use of the pentagram.

"... since the Tropical Zodiac is a complete fiction, if you do find something that necessarily relies on it, then it's flawed and arbitrary....
...The association of the elements to the zodiacal triplicities was a Medieval Tropical invention."

So when working with the elements, they should solely be considered terrestrial/Malkuth, not celestial/Chockmah to Yesod?

To me this calls into question the whole logic of the Golden Dawn's Concourse of Forces. The Dee pure material only associates The watchtower's with directions, not elements like the golden dawn does. It seems maybe they were fixated on Eziekiel's vision and tried to make everything from the terrestrial to celestial have an element correspondence.

In regards to the pentagram's element association i guess its just because of the order of density; from spirit, to fire, to air, to water, and finally to earth. Also the Pentagrammaton read around in a circle linked to Jesus clockwise IHVShH, and counterclockwise IHShVH.

So no matter the system used Enochian, Goetia, Picatrix, etc. Sidereal can always be applied?

Since the zodiac "moves" in the sidereal system how are the elements represented? The solstices and equinoxes would keep shifting right?

Mathers model of the pentagram placed on zodical round is set to the seasons based on the fixed signs:
Counterclockwise = Aquarius mid winter, Taurus mid spring, Leo summer solstice, Scorpio autumn equinox.

The Tetragrammaton is used in The Concourse of Forces to assign elemental and zodiacal qualities:
Y(fire & the cardinal signs) H(water & the fixed signs) V(air & the mutable signs) H(earth & 4 elements)

My question is if I operate using the sidereal system does this throw off the various pentagram rituals and Enochian correspondence? They all seem to be seasonal/tropical astrology based.

Thanks

Thanks for the response Jim. I'm not exactly Thelemic, but I do work with a lot of Thelemic concepts.

Any opinions on me using a statue of Amun-Re (the god of Hidden Light) to represent Hadit on my own personal altar?

I plan to do this and Amun-Re seems like a perfect fit for Kether and Hadit.

Thanks, for answering #s 2 & 3.... how about #1

1. Pagan gods have their own agenda, Archangels are considered to serve God. Both are considered Briatic, what's their difference?

Again, thanks for the reply Jim. You're clarifying a lot of questions I have.

But I got 3 more, if you don't mind.

1. Pagan gods have their own agenda, Archangels are considered to serve God. Both are considered Briatic, what's their difference?

2. So the Qlipoth is Yetziric, and the Four Great Princes of Evil are Briatic. I thought they were both unbalanced forces, can you explain their difference? Also were you referring to the Aeon of Isis when you mention archangels of a more primitive human era?

3. If the entire Tree is in all 4 worlds, can you explain the difference and purpose of the 4 Daaths?

Thanks for your time

Thanks for the reply Jim.

My follow up question is; would Arch-demons like the seven Kings of Edom who inhabit the kingdoms of unbalanced force be the averse side of Beriah, or would they all be lumped together in the astral (Yetzirah)?

My understanding is that Daath is in (for lack of a better term) Beriah. So the Tzim Tzum takes place beneath the level of Atziluth forming a gateway.

In Hermetic Qabalah my understanding of the four worlds, and the entities that inhabit them breakdown like this:

Atziluth: Names of God, Level of Nothingness (eternal archetypes)... Example: God say's rest.

Beriah: Archangels and pagan gods, Level of Creation (mental concepts)...Example: Archangels/gods say, I think the boss wants a chair.

Yetzirah: Angels, daemons, jinn, elementals, Level of Formation (astral)...Example: Various spirits get to work on designing chairs

Assiah: Man, animals, plants, minerals, Level of Material (physical realm)...Example: Manifestation of various types of chairs.

**So, my question is are the pagan deities like Suen/Nebo/Ishtar/Shamash/Nergal/Marduk/Ninurta/Ea/Anu equivalent to Gabriel/Raphael/Hanael/Michael/Kamael/Tzadkiel/Zaphkiel/Raziel/Metatron?

By equivalent I don't mean exactly the same, just inhabiting the same world/level.**

@Frater Horus said

"Thanks bro... interesting. I actually read your post just before going to BJJ and applied the "edit" concerning guard passes. It does work better with air.

I tried also subs with this mindset(air) succesfully. Very interesting how it changes the game...

For instance the kimura fits well. Also it may depend on the opponent's and one's flow in real time.

Do you practice straight BJJ too or only MMA?

It could be interesting to study fighters charts, style and career wise, and astrological conditions of specific bouts...

Just a quick element:

Diaz=cancer
GSP=taurus

I notice both use their natural advantage but also work mostly on the opposite(air for GSP, Fire for Diaz)... What is sure is what they do work "

I occasionally (couple times a week) practice just BJJ (normally no gi). Most of my BJJ training though is starting from being mounted or side mounted and trying to escape and submit while getting punched, its a great drill for MMA.

I could see Kimuras being air like. If you do what Dean Lister calls a long range Kimura you use knee as a post on their arm (inside your guard) to keep their arm bent, then kick your leg out to lock in the kimura. It's deceptive, quick, and requires quick movement = air qualities.

Most submissions require explosion though (even the kimura) so I would label air passing and fire submissions. The human body can withstand long slow joint manipulation, but if you explode into it = submission.

I like your GSP/Diaz breakdown, it works well with my ranges and sefer yetzirah. GSP is a Taurus (fixed clinch/takedowns) and Diaz is a Cancer (Mutable ground BJJ). They each work on their opposite element though, GSP = Air (Safety lead Jabs) and Diaz = Fire (rapid 1 2s, especially rear straights)

I did something similar to this a long time ago. As a competitive MMA fighter I broke it down by ranges of the Sefer Yetzirah:

Striking range = Fire/Shin
Clinch range = Air/Alef
Ground Range = Water/Mem

also could be

Striking range = Cardinal
Clinch range = Fixed
Ground Range = Mutable

Also I would edit some of the above:

4.Within jiu jitsu:
Earth: various guards
Water: sweeps
Fire: submissions
Air: guard passing
Ether: chaining: passes/sweeps/various guards with submissions

7.Within MMA fighters:
Earth: cain velasquez, Fedor Emelianeko (to calm to be fire)
Water: nick diaz, bj penn
Fire: George St Pierre (for his explosion)
Air: Loyoto Machida, anderson silva (for footwork)

Thanks for the website, its very interesting...and apparently I'm not a libra I'm a virgo now!

@Diluvium said

"Y - Electricity - Father(Hadit) - Fire - Atziluth - Chaos - Nigredo"

Its interesting that you place Atziluth with chaos. i was rereading the sefer yetzirah yesterday and was focusing on the 3 mother letters (mem, alef, shin) being part of the universe of chaos (tohu) and the 3 father letters (yud, vav, heh) coming from the mothers to make the universe of rectification. So in your understanding is Atziluth the realm of proto-sefirot?

@Diluvium said

"My understanding is this:
YHVH is a formula for the nature of power, energy, as it exists in our reality.
It is raw force, without conscience or goal, other than to be used, discharged."

@Uni_Verse said

"I view YHVH as the structural pattern of existence, at least as far as one can comprehend consciously."

Sounds like both of you could have chosen #1 as well. Without a personal mind/will do you see YHVH as any different from the Dao, or the demiurge force of creation?

I voted "something else" because personally, I think they are all true.

@Jim Eshelman said

"The elemental attributions, as used in popular astrology, were crafted for the fictitious Tropical zodiac in Medieval times. "

Which astrological system do you use?

I have been researching Kabbalah for several years now, mesopotamian ancient history, gnosticism, and I also enjoy chaos magick. My question is what is your interpretation of YHVH?

1. From a kabbalistic view I see YHVH as something akin to the Dao, an all encompassing source of infinity that gives rise to the finite.

2. There is an obvious connections to older traditions in the bible. In Sumerian mythology Enlil causes the flood and Enki alerts Ziusudra (Noah) just to give one example.

3. The Gnostic view of YHVH as the Demiurge (I take a Valentinus view personally and don't see the demiurge as evil) but not the highest God or true source.

4. Chaos view of an egregore who has reached the level of godform long ago

5. Another perspective I haven't thought of.

Please share your reasons for your choice, thanks!

@Jim Eshelman said

"The elemental attributions, as used in popular astrology, were crafted for the fictitious Tropical zodiac in Medieval times. But the Triplicities (not interpreted as elements) were most anciently attributed as follows. (I'm using elemental names just for reference.)
"

I looked it up in 777 and read "in each case the cardinal sign represents the birth of the element, the Kerubic sign its Life, and its mutable sign its passing over towards the ideal form proper to it i.e. to Spirit.

So if triplicity are not elements, what would you reference as a name for them instead?

My current understanding:
Marduk rules Aries, Leo, Sagitarius and these are of the element fire
Istar rules Taurus, Virgo, Capricorn and these are of the element air
Ninurta rules Gemini, Libra, Aquarius and these are of the element water
Nergal rules Cancer, Scorpio, Pisces and these are of the element earth

This changes the modern attribution of the elements to the zodiac and their ruling planets, not all of them but some.

Here's the original article: web.eecs.utk.edu/~mclennan/BA/PP.html#plane

The author tries to analzye the pentagram from a pythagorean view.

Essentially, I was curious if anyone on this forum had knowledge of the Babylonian attributions of elements to the zodiac. Jupiter is hot(fire), Venus wet(air), Saturn cold(water), and Mars dry(earth). So according to this Jupiter would rule the fire triplicity, Venus the air, Saturn the water, and Mars earth triplicity. These attributes come from Ptolemy's Tetrabiblos, which are different from the current triplicities we have from Vetius Valens' Anthologia.

If you have the extra time read the article and please share your thoughts. I would like to operate from a more pure Babylonian astrological system, so any feedback on this system would be appreciated, Thank you!