College of Thelema: Thelemic Education

@Alrah said

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@he atlas itch said
"Alrah – I might agree dwelling on past lives is congratulatory self-wanking if I only have memories of historically important people. But it’s a catch-22 since existing historical records are usually of important people – history is written by the winners – and therefore no records remain of a field hand who lived during the Middle Ages. That’s why piecing together the past involves exploring both the personal unconscious and sifting through historical evidence. What I’m convinced of is the signs related to one’s True Will remain constant throughout an incarnation, in recurring motifs and obsessions, sometimes physical evidence on the body, the circumstances into which one is born into, etc.

Does it matter in the here and now? Only if you think remembering your past - from childhood to present - has helped in you in any way. Dwelling on past lives merely extends the field of inquiry. The questions one tends to ask, by analogy, become bigger."

Oh, I don't think it makes much difference whether you think you were important in your last life or not unless you simply want to address the dangers of ego inflation. That's not the main 'thing'. It's the sense of continuity that the ego is attached to. 'I Am', 'I Have Been' & 'I Will Be' is comfort food for it. It's more difficult to throw the whole thing overboard and think - 'when I die I will be no more'. The ego finds it frightening. Magick threatens the ego - which is why I believe so many occults get into the whole investigation of past life themes. There seems to be an excuse for it, but really - until a person looses thier fear of not being a person then shouldn't these investigations wait?

It smells a bit 'spiritualist' to me. "

Alrah, I don't think spiritualists believe in reincarnation, their thing is contacting discarnate spirits.
Exploring one's past lifes is not about comfort. And from what I can tell, the "I" does not survive. So losing the fear of not being a person is a given.

@Alrah said

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@Jim Eshelman said
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@Alrah said
"Or they can preordained."

I'm not talking about the four or five on the planet at any given time who are in that Dali Lama like category. I'm talking about most people."

Dalai Lama bosh! ...."

Are you saying that The Dalai Lama is not any more wise or spiritually advanced than 4 or 5 thousand others, who are keeping a low profile? Just want to understand. And you feel that he is not the incarnation of anyone, that he was taught his lineage's wisdon by others? Then he too belonged to a mystery school or tradition.
I am wondering how you arrived at your conclusion that some people are preordained? Just want to understand your POV.

@he atlas itch said

"Can one's understanding of True Will develop over many incarnations - e.g. 40 lives?

I recently came across a historical figure whose details, name, life and travels really resonate with odd things I've noted about my current life - places I've felt attracted to, memories of past incarnations, my own character traits and inexplicable lifelong obsessions.
Does karma operates purely on a mechanical level, from one incarnation to the next, with past life memories getting wiped each time? Or can we become aware of a story of the self - the paying off of an old debt - that stretches across many incarnations?"

Thank you for bringing this topic up again. I'm working through some of these same issues and all the information provided helps. With me its not a historical figure but as you say, places and strong memories that can't be explained any other way in this life. Its like a personal mystery that only you can solve. For what its worth, I found that any way that I can suspend the logical mind, will help to bring memories to the surface, however unpleasant. Hope this makes sense.

Alrah, I agree with you in theory. I just don't have unlimited time or energy to pursue studies that may be fringe interests. (In this case, its not even an interest, sorry.) My time is taken up with those things I care about, and I have to make choices about allocating energy. If you have ever tried to write even a good short story, not to mention anything longer, you'll know how much concentration it takes. You only finish because either someone is breathing down your neck, or you are so in love with the story that you are determined to finish. This is how I feel about what I write and study. I do think that most of us are autodidacts. And I agree with you about schools. But with me it would be about choices.
On the other hand, there were several PBS programs about physics that I did like because they were directed toward the non-scientific audiences wihtout being dumbed down. Well maybe scientists would say they were dumbed down.

Alrah, But how many of them will be able to understand this without having the extensive background? This is a pretty specialized area. If you study this sort of thing, you have my congrats. Its beyond me, I was an English major who ran from anything math-related-:)

@nderabloodredsky said

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There are only two kinds of religion: true and false. True are those that teach Gnosis, that the truth and initiation can only be found and bestowed from within. False are those that teach the same can only be found or bestowed from without.
Let him who has ears to hear, hear."

I really can't think of a religion that doesn't require membership or alignment in some form. All major western ones do, before a person can fully participate in all the rites of that faith. If I may use an old aeon example, only Catholics may receive communion. The point is that, in that tradition or in a magical one, something is passed along to the person in a rite, whatever you want to calll it, that you can't get even if you became a scholar in that tradition. I remember Joseph Campbell saying a little sadly to Bill Moyers in one of his interviews, that he knew he was a scholar, not an initiate, of any of the many traditions he studied. I think it may be possible rarely, to bypass that route. But not having anyone to compare notes with could be confusing for even the most gifted person, I would think. And most of us are far from that.
And yes, it is true that you may find a teacher who turns out to be abusive or too controlling. It happened to me. If that's the case then its time to leave. But one bad teacher does not condem the whole system.

@nderabloodredsky said

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I have do disagree with the advice on the first thing one should do is find a teacher and commit to an extended period of time. That's kind of like marrying the first girl (or guy) you have sex with. Sometimes that works, but usually no.
Experiment, talk to people, read, and pray. And by praying, I mean aspire to the light within you."

Underabloodredsky, Interesting analogy. I agree with you that finding a teacher is not something to rush into. But on the other hand, some people can't ever commit to marriage or to a teacher and later in life they may wonder what they have missed.

Yes, I also would like to know. I am writing to get some things worked out, its a long process.

I think all the changes work very well, don't think it sounds anything like Wicca.
I used to wonder why it was called The Gnostic Mass after doing some research on the Gnostics. This does fit better.
I'm looking forward to the new book.

Vortex, When you say the author, do you mean Lovecraft or Simon?
In the past I've heard about groups that were trying to work with the novel 'Harvest Home' by Thomas Tryon. And there are groups trying to use The Lord of the Rings. Tolkein must be spinning, since he was a strict Catholic. And isn't there a LOTR tarot now?
I just feel that to try to use something that someone writes as fiction seems either useless or worse.

You met one of them too? Btw sorry if my answer didn't make sense, I just went to the dentist this AM so I'll blame the novacaine.

Well, that's what makes the most sense to me. But yes, a Crowley wannabe would challenging-:)

Alrah;
I understand what you're saying. And yes, if someone says they were Henry the Eighth, or Cleopatra, red flags go up. But again, this is a complex thing and there is no one-size-fits -all answer. I would think that, statistically, most of us would have had ordinary lives with alot of struggle and hardship.
I do believe that certain strong memories can carry over if karma has to be worked out. Whatever memories you, I, or others have are probably only there because of something that has to be looked at. Dion Fortune wrote about this in several of her short stories and novels. And of course, this presumes an openness to a spiritual life. It certainly isn't something that can be debated or explained rationally, so I don't even try.

Your comments are bordering on harassment. I can't decide whether you're a boor or a bore. Go away, I wan't even addressing you.

Just my opinion, I wouldn't touch it with a ten foot pole. I met the publisher of Simon's book years ago and let's just say he was a 'character' who would sell you anything. I am not a fan of Lovecraft either, too creepy for me.
From what I have heard there are several versions of this book floating around, each claiming to be the real one. I'll probably get flack for this but I'd say all those books are worthless. Just my opinion.

Alrah; Very funny and well-written.
And I would just mention amid a break in the endless intellectualizing, that reincarnation is traditionally called transmigration of the soul.

@Fr. T.E.U. said

"...Excuse me, Persephone - I don't quite understand why you're so upset all of a sudden; why you're "taking pity" on me and offering me "condelences". Perhaps you could clarify yourself?

I'll end this quick response with the following:

Persephone, there is such a thing as a "spiritual materialist". ...That, and materialism is not synonmous with physicalism.
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I again apologize if what I wrote sounded as if I was upset. I think that is a failing of just reading someone's words without hearing their voice. I wasn't at all upset, just trying to reply to your question. I sincerely feel bad for anyone who is a materialist. No pity.
Thanks for elaborating on your philosophy, if it works for you, great.

@Fr. T.E.U. said

"...Before I forget my argument, I'd like to propose a counter-argument to the comment above concerning complexity and the growth of consciousness. ...Infact, this is an older and well-used counter-argument of mine.
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Thus, we can safely conclude: one or more of the commonly held postulates mentioned above are wrong; either A). awareness is a potential of all matter and/or B) awareness is already realized (to varying degrees) in/of all matter

Now, which position is more the "leap of faith"?
"

I apologize, I didn't know you were a materialist since you talked about a conscious universe. You have my condolences, you don't know what you're missing.
Your logic leaves out numerous other possibilities.
A and B are both basically the same thing, said different ways and there's no point quibbling about shades of meaning.
As others have mentioned, it really is surprising that so many non-spiritual people are drawn to a magick forum. But really, why bother debating this, since you have already made up your mind?

@Fr. T.E.U. said

"Hmm...

Might I propose a second possible explanation for the notion of the "eternal now", besides turning to the oft misunderstood quantum mechanics? Consider: the "eternal now" - as I have understood it - might mean the merging of present/past in memory; ie: that which has happened is recorded by the conscious aspect of the cosmos and can then be viewed as (technically) "still happening". In short: is there really any need to postulate a nigh infinite amount of time streams/universes? What say you?

Thanks for your time,

QaZsE - Fr. T.E.U."

Fr. T.E.U.; Sure, anything is possible and one theory is as valid as another. Could that be something like The Akashic Records?

@Neshamah246 said

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How does one go about locating a Teacher for** A.'.A.'.** ?
Thanks in advance.

With much Peace,"

I suggest doing a search, alot has been discussed on this subject. As has been said, there is alot available online, so much in fact that it can be confusing. As someone else suggested, trust your instincts.