Liber O Pentagrams
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@93magick said
"I mentioned the Hanged Man because it seems it represents Elemental Water and encompasses the idea of "Suspending Thought" (thought equating to Air in my estimation)."
Meditating on it from what I would consider a more holistic perspective, The Hanged Man is about suspending thought that one might contemplate something without undue influence.
To use an analogy :
When ever we view something, we do so through a body of "Water."
Any thought we have, in turn, causes ripples, distorting our perspective.
So, when thought is suspended, the water is calm and serene and we can better view this object. -
@93magick said
"I suppose I have another technical question: is banishing Air the same act as invoking Water (and vice versa)? Can you banish Air without invoking Water or does the act of banishing Air automatically invoke water?? The idea of the Hanged Man stated above makes it seem to me that banishing Air or thought is the way to Invoke Water ( and also the directions of the Pentagrams in Liber O already mentioned). I'm interested in the dynamics between different Elements and how they interact.... Any thoughts about that, anyone?
Appreciate all of your input so far!
93s!"Thoughts from one practitioner to another, not to be taken as an "answer" in any sense of the word:
At first, I wanted to instinctively respond with: No, they're two completely different things. But, after half a breath of further contemplation, I do see the thread you are following. In order to experience Water in its purest state, it would be necessary (I think) to banish the other elements from your circle. Whether this is done with pentagrams or other ritual or non-ritual means, it seems to follow that anything non-Water should be pushed outside of the circle. The intellect of Air seems to offer a perfect foil to the emotion of Water and so it is tempting to see a necessary converse link between the two.
However, in order to experience the true fluid reflective stillness of Water, one must also still the passions of Fire and loosen the rigidity of Earth. I also don't see how it would be necessary to invoke Water in order to banish Air and therefore don't see the necessary link between the two that you seem to want to infer. You can banish Air without invoking Water. You can invoke Water without banishing Air. You can both invoke Water and Banish Air. Or you can just make yourself a nice pot of Earl Grey and watch the sunset. It all depends on intention. Direction of Will.
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"93magick wrote:
I mentioned the Hanged Man because it seems it represents Elemental Water and encompasses the idea of "Suspending Thought" (thought equating to Air in my estimation).Meditating on it from what I would consider a more holistic perspective, The Hanged Man is about suspending thought that one might contemplate something without undue influence.
To use an analogy :
When ever we view something, we do so through a body of "Water."
Any thought we have, in turn, causes ripples, distorting our perspective.
So, when thought is suspended, the water is calm and serene and we can better view this object.
"Thank you for that input, Uni_Verse! Just to be clear, I wasn't suggesting that that's "all there is" to that Atu, it just seemed to connect with the Water and Air pentagram directions in Liber O. I will add your input to my meditation on the topic
@Gnosomai Emauton said
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@93magick said
"I suppose I have another technical question: is banishing Air the same act as invoking Water (and vice versa)? Can you banish Air without invoking Water or does the act of banishing Air automatically invoke water?? The idea of the Hanged Man stated above makes it seem to me that banishing Air or thought is the way to Invoke Water ( and also the directions of the Pentagrams in Liber O already mentioned). I'm interested in the dynamics between different Elements and how they interact.... Any thoughts about that, anyone?Appreciate all of your input so far!
93s!"Thoughts from one practitioner to another, not to be taken as an "answer" in any sense of the word:
At first, I wanted to instinctively respond with: No, they're two completely different things. But, after half a breath of further contemplation, I do see the thread you are following. In order to experience Water in its purest state, it would be necessary (I think) to banish the other elements from your circle. Whether this is done with pentagrams or other ritual or non-ritual means, it seems to follow that anything non-Water should be pushed outside of the circle. The intellect of Air seems to offer a perfect foil to the emotion of Water and so it is tempting to see a necessary converse link between the two.
However, in order to experience the true fluid reflective stillness of Water, one must also still the passions of Fire and loosen the rigidity of Earth. I also don't see how it would be necessary to invoke Water in order to banish Air and therefore don't see the necessary link between the two that you seem to want to infer. You can banish Air without invoking Water. You can invoke Water without banishing Air. You can both invoke Water and Banish Air. Or you can just make yourself a nice pot of Earl Grey and watch the sunset. It all depends on intention. Direction of Will."
Thank for your reply, Gnosomai! It seems to me like maybe there is a special relationship between Water and Air specifically. I'm not saying that "you have to banish Air to invoke water" and vice versa, but maybe banishing Water is the same thing in a sense as invoking Air (and vice versa)
Based on the direction of drawing the pentagrams alone, a banishing Water pentagram is the same as an invoking Air Pentagram and vice versa (based on Liber O).
A train of thought hit me like a ton of bricks last night:
- a water bottle: as you drink the water from the water bottle, the bottle simultaneously fills with air to replace the water that was inside. If you refill the bottle, the air gets pushed out as the water enters.
-you can't drink water and breathe at the same exact time. It's like an "on/off" switch, "pick one". If you're drinking you're not breathing and if you're breathing, you're not drinking- two different pipes intersecting the same "line" on the body. Brings to mind my assumption that invoking Water (drinking) is the same act as banishing Air (can't breathe at the same time) and vice versa...
- you can't be alive and dead at the same time. If you think of Air representing the first breath (or The Fool) and Water representing death (Tarot-wise: The Hanged Man as Elemental Water, The Death as Scorpio, Cardinal Water sign etc... Think of The Death as the "terminal breath" Air exiting and "water/ death" invoking simultaneously.
Seems like if you look at the human body as the pentagram and draw a horizontal line at the neck from right to left, it represents life/ the first breath of a baby/invoking air (and banishing water, the baby just came from a watery womb!!!)
And if you draw a horizontal line across the neck of the human body/pentagram from left to right, it represents death, terminal breath (banishing Air), Scorpio, (look at The Death card in the Thoth deck, seems to be under water/ bubbles rising) banishing air and simultaneously invoking water.
Based on the above, it seems to me right now that banishing Air automatically invokes Water and banishing Water automatically invokes Air, that seems to me right now to explain why the pentagrams in Liber O are drawn as they are:
the banishing Air pentagram=the invoking Water pentagram
And
The banishing Water pentagram= the invoking Air pentagram
Any input greatly appreciated as always!
Greatly appreciate all of your patience through my semi-coherent babblings!
93s!
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Nothing to add here except: Great work! You've gone well beyond my thoughts on the matter and they seem to be pretty solid thoughts. Play around with them and see where they take you.
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@Gnosomai Emauton said
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@93magick said
"The intellect of Air seems to offer a perfect foil to the emotion of Water and so it is tempting to see a necessary converse link between the two."
"An interesting (and somewhat puzzling, to me) thing about intellect as Air and emotion as Water though, is that - while intellect can correspond to Air in terms of the Sword (and maybe emotions to the Cup because people get emotional when they get drunk
) - they are actually switched around when it comes to the elemental attributions of the Sephiroth (which informs the Air - East, Fire - South, Water - West, and Earth - North distribution of the elements in the Pentagram ritual, also notice how Air and Water + Fire and Earth have polar locations, now notice how the relevant points on the Pentagram are mirrored... also each Spirit Active is balanced by a Spirit Passive in a polar manner): Hod - intellect - is Water, Yesod - subconsciousness (and arguably the origin of reactive emotion?) - is Air.I find it tricky myself, Yesod in terms of "the deep" subconscious can feel like it would lend itself to Water, but then the "blowing all over the place" aspect of Air is a good fit for emotion too (and as humans we are blown about all over the place by our subconscious a lot). Then Hod as intellect feels like it should be a fit for Air, but the Cup is about "form" - as opposed to content - which is related to the intellect.
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@bdc said
"they are actually switched around when it comes to the elemental attributions of the Sephiroth (which informs the Air - East, Fire - South, Water - West, and Earth - North distribution of the elements in the Pentagram ritual"
If I'm reading you correctly here, I think you might have this bit mixed up. The Archangelic directions of the Pentagram ritual are according to the winds, not the Sephiroth.
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@93magick said
"I wasn't suggesting that that's "all there is" to that Atu, it just seemed to connect with the Water and Air pentagram directions in Liber O. I will add your input to my meditation on the topic "
No worries, was keeping my commentary some what contextual
@93magick said
"- a water bottle: as you drink the water from the water bottle, the bottle simultaneously fills with air to replace the water that was inside. If you refill the bottle, the air gets pushed out as the water enters.
-you can't drink water and breathe at the same exact time. It's like an "on/off" switch, "pick one". If you're drinking you're not breathing and if you're breathing, you're not drinking- two different pipes intersecting the same "line" on the body. Brings to mind my assumption that invoking Water (drinking) is the same act as banishing Air (can't breathe at the same time) and vice versa...
- you can't be alive and dead at the same time. If you think of Air representing the first breath (or The Fool) and Water representing death (Tarot-wise: The Hanged Man as Elemental Water, The Death as Scorpio, Cardinal Water sign etc... Think of The Death as the "terminal breath" Air exiting and "water/ death" invoking simultaneously."
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Excellent ! I was going to type something to this effect when I replied earlier.
However, I had difficulty formulating how I might get the point across.
Appears there was nothing to worry about - you can't be alive and dead at the same time. If you think of Air representing the first breath (or The Fool) and Water representing death (Tarot-wise: The Hanged Man as Elemental Water, The Death as Scorpio, Cardinal Water sign etc... Think of The Death as the "terminal breath" Air exiting and "water/ death" invoking simultaneously."
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@Gnosomai Emauton said
"If I'm reading you correctly here, I think you might have this bit mixed up. The Archangelic directions of the Pentagram ritual are according to the winds, not the Sephiroth."
Oops, yes, ADNI clockwise rather than Sephiroth, thanks!
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@93magick said
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", also notice how Air and Water + Fire and Earth have polar locations,"Yes, I noticed that, too:) however, Water and Air are directly connected on the Pentagram and Fire and Earth are connected via Spirit it seems."
Yes, all these things are worthy of meditation for sure. A neat thing about the Spirit pentagrams is that the first line of Active links the Fire and Air points of the pentagram and the first line of Passive links the Earth and Water points.