LBRP Divine Name Sequence
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@Hermitas said
"Every time I try, I get so bound up about it that I can't sleep. So, no."
Candidly: That's a serious problem. You have to get over it. You can't let something stop you like that, especially when it's your own mind.
What difference would it make, anyway? Unless you're going to visualize different things or think different thoughts during the ritual, hoe would this knowledge alter one bit what you do it the ritual?
I've known the formula for nearly 30 years and it has almost never even crossed my mind when doing the ritual (or almost any other time, unless questions like this arise).
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I'm not sure I understand. Are you saying you have a separate (unrelated to what Jim and I were discussing) revelation that pertains to the cube of space, but you can't share your revelation because if you do, you get obsessed or haunted by it and can't sleep?
No judgment: just wondering if I'm interpreting your message correctly.
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Yes. Sort of - it depends on whether or not one assumes that the LRP's directions are unassociated with the directions on the Cube of Space. I'm not completely certain of their connection yet (though I have flirted with the idea and so far like it - kind of related, but in a "once removed" kind of way), so I'll just say yes. Different.
Full disclosure: I believe myself to be oversensitive to what I describe as "psychic blowback" or "feedback" - intense reactionary emotions I believe I pick up on. It triggers manic rage, for which I am on medication, and I'm honestly afraid for my health. Hence my embrace of hermity-ness.
So, I remain torn about it. Because I'd like to leave some kind of legacy from all this study. I don't really have anything to show for it. But I'm honestly not sure I can handle it.
Mostly, I was telling a story of being able to relate to frustration with not knowing what to do with thinking you've discovered a blind and not being able to confirm it.
That, and I'm starting to think a lot of people know it anyway... I probably just need to find a fraternity..
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@Hermitas said
"Yes. Sort of - it depends on whether or not one assumes that the LRP's directions are unassociated with the directions on the Cube of Space. I'm not completely certain of their connection yet (though I have flirted with the idea and so far like it), so I'll just say yes. Different."
I'm unaware of anything associating the Divine Names to the quarters of the Cube of Space (and, obviously, the elements of the archangels are not thus attributed.
From the other things you've said, you might want to observe that any ritual that has you charging east, south, west, and north in sequence with Cube of Space attributions stimulates four chakras in sequence, from throat downward. With the sensitivity you mentioned, if you are layering in these other attributions, it is very likely you would be reacting to this phenomenon.
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@Jim Eshelman said
"I've known the formula for nearly 30 years and it has almost never even crossed my mind when doing the ritual (or almost any other time, unless questions like this arise)."
Then for me the relevant question becomes: What was your experience of the ritual before the answer was given to you?
The fact that you've known it for 30 years and it almost never crosses your mind speaks to the fact that, once your mind has recognized the truth -- once the correct seed has been planted -- that part of your mind will consider its work done and the actual power of the ritual can do its work of watering the seed. Once the correct seed is in the ground, we don't have to keep checking in on it to make sure that we actually buried a seed and not a pebble. We can attend to other things and trust that the water we are sprinkling on the soil every morning is doing its job, even if no sprouts show for months on end. Once the truth is known, then we can rely on faith.
Relying on faith ahead of that point ("This ritual, done by rote, does its job.") tickles that part of the mind that wants to know why it's doing what it's doing. For anyone who doesn't have the possibility of entering the Second Order of TOT in this lifetime, it's an answer that the mind now knows it likely will never get and so doubt creeps in. One might turn to published accounts at which point one will find a plethora of different explanations. From memory right now, I know I've read those that correlate the names to the Archangels, to various sephiroth as one spins and rotates around the tree, to a deep and complicated mathematical formula. Following my own inner guide, I've landed on a very useful building of the Cube of Space which does, as you mention above, focus on the chakras from Venus to Mars during this particular section.
But... not having a definite answer as to what these vibrations are meant to be accomplishing means that, unless I've already worked myself up to an enflamed point (not a typical occurrence with a preliminary banishing ritual, though it does happen on occasion) the mind takes over. The mind wants to know what it's doing and why. The mind won't be banished by a simple: "Have faith."
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really do have these hierarchies of information. It rings eerily similar to the Christian Church during much of its history, where the ruling class had access to the Scriptures but kept them from others. It was a crime to translate the Bible from Latin to another language because they didn't want the common folk to be able to learn from it directly. It had to go through the church leaders. People were executed precisely because they translated the Bible into the vernacular.
What I like about Thelema is that the bulk of information is made accessible to all. I don't think secret knowledge has a place in it, unless it's something that serves a purpose in being secret until a time when it can be revealed, e.g., initiation rituals. Why are we still trying to withhold information from the common people? Haven't we done away with such draconian ideas?
In this case, I know Jim has made a promise... But how awful that the people who told him made him swear he'd only give the info to people in one particular man-made institution!
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@Luce said
"What I like about Thelema is that the bulk of information is made accessible to all. I don't think secret knowledge has a place in it, unless it's something that serves a purpose in being secret until a time when it can be revealed, e.g., initiation rituals. Why are we still trying to withhold information from the common people? Haven't we done away with such draconian ideas?"
Just to be clear, there is no necessary connection between Thelema and the Lesser Pentagram Rituals. They predate it by a long shot and hold no place in its canon. As Jim mentioned above:
@Jim Eshelman said
"Temple of Thelema, in addition to drawing on A.'.A.'. roots of its founders, also has other contributing threads, including some at least a millennium older than anything the world has known as A.'.A.'.. This particular Qabbalistic knowledge descends through that older tradition. "
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"Just to be clear, there is no necessary connection between Thelema and the Lesser Pentagram Rituals. They predate it by a long shot and hold no place in its canon."
I don't think that's relevant. The fact is that there are magical secrets withheld from the profane by thelemites. I think it is the duty of thelemites to make all spiritual knowledge available to all people, except where secrecy is warranted because keeping something secret will either help the person (example: initiation rituals) or keep them from harm (example: not teaching powerful rituals to newbies). Now, you are all more thelemic than me, so you're free to disagree and you'll probably be right.
Having magical secrets held by people of a certain level should have died with the old aeon. The Law is for all, and by extension, I think so is all spiritual knowledge. We should want the spiritual evolution of humanity and should turn none away. I don't think there is a single spiritual or magical fact that I wouldn't tell someone, unless it fits either of the two criterion listed above. Now, I don't possess very many magical secrets and I'll be the first to admit that. But I hope that when I do, I'll be willing to pass them on to sincere aspirants.
Again, what I'm saying doesn't apply to Jim, because he is withholding information due to a promise. But, there are many other areas where Jim won't share certain things, saying they are private to TOT. That troubles me, because unless it is either to protect the person or to help him or her, I can't see a reason for it (of course, that doesn't mean such a reason doesn't exist). Why withhold truth that could help the evolution of humanity? And again, how is it different from medieval church leaders concealing things?
I strongly feel that thelemites especially shouldn't keep such magical secrets. Now, Jim publishes A LOT and answers MANY questions, but what is the purpose of certain methods and practices being made available solely to TOT students? Why limit spiritual truth (even the smallest nugget) to a man-made organization? Is it just to keep TOT "special" and desirable? Because if it were all known, TOT wouldn't seem as mysterious and powerful? Again, this whole post needs to be couched in conditional language because it assumes there is no good reason for keeping methods and information secret. Maybe there IS such a reason, but from an outside perspective, it sure wafts of an old-aeon keep-the-knowledge-from-the-profane attitude.
But I want to end on a good note. Jim goes out of his way to correct errors and blinds, and makes a ton of information available; for this, I am filled with gratitude. I guess my question is, why not all of it? Surely these concealed methods and secrets could spur on the evolution of humanity. I'm not suggesting everything needs to be published and open... But when a sincere aspirant shows dedication and searched for hours on end to uncover a fact, why not throw the dog a bone?
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Hmm that does make me think. Is that the reason for some secrets, I wonder? In case they fall into the wrong hands? Mind you, could an organization really adequitely discern the moral quality of an applicant? Especially when the key moral adage is do what thou wilt?
Perhaps it's something like that... But that doesn't really explain concealing methods. For example, I was seeking information on here about how to increase my visual abilities. I was given one method involving colors and Hebrew letters, but I was told that the other methods were secret to the TOT. In a case like that, it seems the other methods are just helpful ways to succeed in a basic magical task. It doesn't seem like some dangerous secret that, if put in the wrong hands, could cause chaos (the bad form of chaos, heh).
I would love to have access to these methods. I struggle a lot with really feeling like I'm doing something when I practice. In a lot of ways, I feel like I'm doing all the right actions, but it feels "pretend" a lot of the time. I could really use some from-thr-ground-up training, and TOT seems to offer that. But I'm so far away from TOT that it will never be possible to capitalize on these training methods. I want magick to really work. I'm sick of feeling like I'm just pretending. And this frustration is only exacerbated by the thought that there is information out there that could help me but is being concerned.
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Yeah. It kinda sucks, but... I don't know what to tell you. I'm in the same boat.
Stick with it.
You program you unconscious mind with the rudiments, and, yes, you use the magic of pretend. But then one day, your unconscious shows you what it can unfold from what you've been giving it. And that's one form of "inner instruction." It's not just all about the self-consciousness and its methods of getting info.
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@Luce said
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I don't think that's relevant. The fact is that there are magical secrets withheld from the profane by thelemites."Thelemites keep all sorts of secrets, magic and otherwise. If you think that's unfair then reveal the true name, address, and credit card number of the individual behind the "Luce" mask and maybe we can start a dialogue. This particular topic is just special pleading.
There is no "should" in Do what thou wilt.
Since most of the rest of this is off-topic to the original post, I'll just suggest that if you want to complain about methods of secrecy in magical orders, you might want to start another thread for it... but read up on the fourth power of the Sphinx before you do or you'll get shot down even quicker than you did here.
You've been tossed several very meaty bones in this thread. I know because I'm chewing them over as well. It's your choice what you do with them.
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@Luce said
"But I want to end on a good note. Jim goes out of his way to correct errors and blinds, and makes a ton of information available; for this, I am filled with gratitude. I guess my question is, why not all of it? Surely these concealed methods and secrets could spur on the evolution of humanity."
For many things... this isn't true outside the context of the interconnected system. Many things, in isolation, are useless, but as part of an interconnected system, delivered in a particular sequence in a particular way... they have a different power.
The most obvious example, of course, is the Temple of Thelema initiations ceremonies. To disclose them openly would be to substantially remove their usefulness.
Most knowledge (maybe all knowledge) is completely arbitrary, and only gains value in its particular relationship to other knowledge. (The whole of knowledge is simply a self-sustaining pattern of relationships. Remove a piece from context and it is no longer clear what any of it means.)
It is for the evolution of humanity that I've given more than half my life to creating a single system that can survive me which has the ability to produce this effect for those who pass through it. Meanwhile, we do what we can for those who cannot.