LBRP Divine Name Sequence
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@Luce said
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I don't think that's relevant. The fact is that there are magical secrets withheld from the profane by thelemites."Thelemites keep all sorts of secrets, magic and otherwise. If you think that's unfair then reveal the true name, address, and credit card number of the individual behind the "Luce" mask and maybe we can start a dialogue. This particular topic is just special pleading.
There is no "should" in Do what thou wilt.
Since most of the rest of this is off-topic to the original post, I'll just suggest that if you want to complain about methods of secrecy in magical orders, you might want to start another thread for it... but read up on the fourth power of the Sphinx before you do or you'll get shot down even quicker than you did here.
You've been tossed several very meaty bones in this thread. I know because I'm chewing them over as well. It's your choice what you do with them.
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@Luce said
"But I want to end on a good note. Jim goes out of his way to correct errors and blinds, and makes a ton of information available; for this, I am filled with gratitude. I guess my question is, why not all of it? Surely these concealed methods and secrets could spur on the evolution of humanity."
For many things... this isn't true outside the context of the interconnected system. Many things, in isolation, are useless, but as part of an interconnected system, delivered in a particular sequence in a particular way... they have a different power.
The most obvious example, of course, is the Temple of Thelema initiations ceremonies. To disclose them openly would be to substantially remove their usefulness.
Most knowledge (maybe all knowledge) is completely arbitrary, and only gains value in its particular relationship to other knowledge. (The whole of knowledge is simply a self-sustaining pattern of relationships. Remove a piece from context and it is no longer clear what any of it means.)
It is for the evolution of humanity that I've given more than half my life to creating a single system that can survive me which has the ability to produce this effect for those who pass through it. Meanwhile, we do what we can for those who cannot.
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Thanks for your reply, Jim.
"Since most of the rest of this is off-topic to the original post, I'll just suggest that if you want to complain about methods of secrecy in magical orders, you might want to start another thread for it... but read up on the fourth power of the Sphinx before you do or you'll get shot down even quicker than you did here."
I was aware of the fourth power of the Sphinx as I wrote my post. I decided it didn't provide a complete explanation for this secrecy. Btw, I didn't see myself get "shot down." Try not to turn this into a popularity contest. I'm trying to have a discussion here, in the thread that I started, I might remind you (albeit I'm bitching, I'll give you that). It's really not that off-topic anyway, seeing as the thread is about one specific secret and now I'm talking about secrets in general.
By the way, I'm sick of this bullshit "there is no should." There is so, and anyone who thinks there isn't is delusional. Want an example? Jim told me a few posts ago that it wasn't proper to continue sharing my thoughts on here about the specifics of the secret. You know what another way of saying that is? I shouldn't do it. Goodness, Thelema can be a disease when abused.
"This particular topic is just special pleading."
Also, it's not special pleading if it's a different case. Special pleading can't be applied in such a ridiculous manner. I never said all information about anything should be shared. I specifically said spiritual and magical truth that meets strict criteria: it doesn't harm anyone, and it doesn't ruin the surprise. Your analogy of posting personal information online shows a complete and utter misunderstanding of my position.
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@Luce said
"By the way, I'm sick of this bullshit "there is no should." There is so, and anyone who thinks there isn't is delusional. Want an example? Jim told me a few posts ago that it wasn't proper to continue sharing my thoughts on here about the specifics of the secret. You know what another way of saying that is? I shouldn't do it. Goodness, Thelema can be a disease when abused."
You might want to go back and read that post again. Jim wasn't telling you what you should or shouldn't do. He was recognizing that you were veering off-course from question to statement to discussion which was taking your thought process dangerously close to something that he would be obligated to delete based on his personal vow. You are free to post whatever you will. He is free to delete it. Fight like brothers. That's Thelema. There is no should.
He was also suggesting that, unless you had any unanswered questions from the original post, the thread should be wrapped up because anything further would take things off-topic, as it seems to have done.
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"This particular topic is just special pleading."Also, it's not special pleading if it's a different case. Special pleading can't be applied in such a ridiculous manner. I never said all information about anything should be shared. I specifically said spiritual and magical truth that meets strict criteria: it doesn't harm anyone, and it doesn't ruin the surprise. Your analogy of posting personal information online shows a complete and utter misunderstanding of my position."
The fact that you think that Thelema has anything to say about the accessibility of "spiritual and magical truth that meets strict criteria" is special pleading.
In your previous post you quote "the Law is for all" as justification for this democratization of information but you miss the first part of that line:
"the ordeals I write not: the rituals shall be half known and half concealed: the Law is for all."
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The fact that you think that Thelema has anything to say about the accessibility of "spiritual and magical truth that meets strict criteria" is special pleading. "Now I'm not entirely sure you know what that term means, but I guess it doesn't matter.
"In your previous post you quote "the Law is for all" as justification for this democratization of information but you miss the first part of that line:
"the ordeals I write not: the rituals shall be half known and half concealed: the Law is for all.""
Touché. That was more of a poetic device than a proof text though. I stand by my statement that Thelema shouldn't conceal spiritual truth unless it's for one of two reasons given above.
"He was also suggesting that, unless you had any unanswered questions from the original post, the thread should be wrapped up because anything further would take things off-topic, as it seems to have done."
I rest my case.
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Don't get stuck in this, man.
Should or should not, it just is.
One of the foremost scholars in the world provides a website for us to come learn what he can tell us for free. Let that be good enough.
He doesn't even know us. But he's tolerated my grumpy ass for years.
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Both of you are misreading my post. I've said time and time again that I don't hold anything at all against Jim for not posting the secret. He promised, and I respect that. I've also made it clear how grateful I am for all the things he does post. Jim has no obligation to share anything. Moreover, I'm a "guest" here in that I'm on the TOT forum without actually being in TOT. I see that as an amazing privledge.
I thought it'd be interesting to segue this thread into a discussion about secret-keeping in general. I wanted to hear what people's thoughts were about it. I'm done complaining and I was curious on the issue. But being met with the same thelemic drivel is definitely off-putting. I'm tired of the many watered-down thought-terminating clichés that plague discussions on Thelema. Thelema literally has its own special class of abused phrases that ought to be blacklisted.
But I guess I'll let this thread die now. If anyone has any thoughts about the reason behind privledged information (besides the two I've mentioned, that Jim echoed) I'd like to hear them. I truly am intellectually curious on the reason that some methods are kept secret, if those methods do not fit the two criterion mentioned already (protecting an adept from harm and withholding an initiation ritual or magical word so it's more powerful later). This isn't me bitching anymore; I'm legitimately interested on this issue, and I think it's related enough to my OP to not be off-topic. But if people are going to interpret everything I say as complaining and ingratitude, I'd rather not hear it.
TL;DL: Everyone, stop implying I'm ungrateful. I am indebted to Jim for his help. I'm interested in continuing a discussion concerning the reason and morality behind magical secret keeping. If no one else is interested (or if the discussion has become too emotional and can't continue healthily) I'll happily let this thread die.
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It's best to start a new thread for a new topic.
That keeps the forum in better shape in general - makes it more functional for research purposes because people can look for discussions in threads that have a relevant name, etc. Otherwise, it's all a mess.
Also this current thread probably will be deleted one of these days soon, and if you start a new subject that, n fact, generates discussion on a different topic, then that would all go into the dump bucket at the same time.
@Luce said
"I'm tired of the many watered-down thought-terminating clichés that plague discussions on Thelema. Thelema literally has its own special class of abused phrases that ought to be blacklisted."
That might make an interesting new thread on its own. Feel free to start one and discuss what you think those phrases are and why they need to go.
"I truly am intellectually curious on the reason that some methods are kept secret, if those methods do not fit the two criterion mentioned already (protecting an adept from harm and withholding an initiation ritual or magical word so it's more powerful later)."
Another related but distinctive reason: Some information is almost certain to be misunderstood most of the time by most people - until they are ready for it. If it were to be simply incomprehensible, that wouldn't be a problem. But, worse, most people are likely to put a wrong interpretation on many things because normal passage through our society hasn't prepared them to think certain thoughts and understand certain things. To put out information that has a high likelihood of outright misleading someone is irresponsible, so some concepts are withheld until someone demonstrates their readiness for them. (Within an initiatic system, the overall structure - when things are done right - is designed to lead people to readiness for certain ideas a little bit before they are given out).
"Everyone, stop implying I'm ungrateful."
I have not perceived you as ungrateful
"I am indebted to Jim for his help. I'm interested in continuing a discussion concerning the reason and morality behind magical secret keeping. If no one else is interested (or if the discussion has become too emotional and can't continue healthily) I'll happily let this thread die."
I haven't seen it getting emotional at all, but it is OT to the present thread.
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I'd be happy to continue a conversation about the relative merits of magical secrets or about what you're misinterpreting as Thelemic clichés, but this isn't the thread for it. If you do want to have that discussion, start a new thread, not in the Qabalah sub-forum, with a title and OP that reflects what you're actually interested in discussing.
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Thanks for the explanation, Jim. That makes sense to me. Kinda like how a little knowledge is a dangerous thing. I can see that. I wouldn't tell a child how to put keys into the ignition of a car and turn it on... Until I was ready to fully teach him how to drive.
I understand why this thread might be dumped; thanks for the heads up though. I've memorized any info I think might be helpful, and I don't want what I've said to give anything away (but I probably haven't gotten that close yet).
I'll keep my search going! I've read three of the primary pre-zohar kabbalahistic texts and nada so far, but who knows, right? I just hope I haven't read it already and didn't know it xD
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OMG I GOT IT. I freaking got it! All that hard work... I finally got it!!!!!!!
OMG.
Jim, I wanted to check with you to see if you are online... I was reaaallly hoping I could post it to see if you delete it, but I wanted to make sure if I was right, it wouldn't be hanging around on the forum for all to see.
Soo...
will you be super mad if I post it? Is that okay?
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I'm here.
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You are very much on the right track in terms of sources. What you have uncovered just might lead you to it eventually
Good work. -
Slightly off topic, and apologies for that, but just wanted to remark that this:
@Jim Eshelman said
"you might want to observe that any ritual that has you charging east, south, west, and north in sequence with Cube of Space attributions stimulates four chakras in sequence, from throat downward."
...is really cool. Connecting with the fibonacci sequence in the geometry of the pentagram: 3, 5, 8... 358 = serpent = messiah. Revealing the "central magical force" at the root of this "Medicine of Metals and Stone of the Wise".
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BTW, if U ignore Cube of Space and simply take the elemental sequence around the circle (Air, Fire, Water, Earth), then this is also a descending sequence of chakras, but starting at heart instead of throat.
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Mem-shin-yod-heth...
Nun-heth-shin...
Serpent in Eden was... Messiah??
Creepy.
Makes me think of Wake World, when the Fairy Prince brings the sleepy one through the path of Ayin... "He's the Savior of the world" or something like that.
I must have heard that before but shit. That's a decently large number too. The larger the number, the less chance of mere coincidence (like rolling two dice: the probability is a bell curve, with the larger numbers being one of the tails).
"And Moses made a serpent [nachash] of brass, and put it upon a pole, and it came to pass, that if a serpent had bitten any man, when he beheld the serpent of brass, he lived." -- Numbers 21:9
"And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up" -- John 3:14
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"The Serpent is the Savior" - a doctrine so powerful and socially disruptive that it was hidden for millennia under a veil of shame.