the path to knowledge & conversation
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THELEMA
cool thanks for sharing! but are you saying i should look at this paths as kinda an explanation for the sephiroths? or are you saying something completely different?
if i am not making my self clear, are you saying to understand yesod its better study 20 - The Æon - Shiyn 19 - The Sun - Reysh? and the same for the rest of the sephiroths? and this is to help understand these sephiroths and also it would help understand the paths in a way???
or are you saying something completely differnet or maybe you are say nothign at all. and i am just looking at it it too hard, and very stupidly???
AGAPE
Fr.Bethata
Gunner -
@bethata418 said
"cool thanks for sharing! but are you saying i should look at this paths as kinda an explanation for the sephiroths? or are you saying something completely different?"
Actually, the opposite. Ultimately, there is no understanding of the Paths at all except in terms of their relationship to the Sephiroth. What is Tav? It is the symbol of that mode of consciousness experienced when Malkuth opens itself to receive Yesod. Etc.
The marks I put in the list are simply when one has completed the Paths which have "attained" one of the Sephiroth.
"if i am not making my self clear, are you saying to understand yesod its better study 20 - The Æon - Shiyn 19 - The Sun - Reysh? and the same for the rest of the sephiroths? and this is to help understand these sephiroths and also it would help understand the paths in a way???"
No. That may be so, but it's not what I'm saying. At least, not exactly.
I'm saying two things: (1) To understand Shin, understand it to be Malkuth opening to Hod, even as Resh is the experience of Yesod opening to Hod. (2) Understand that these come in sequence. Only after one has attained to Yesod (by crossing the Path of Tav and stabilizing in Yesod) do the Paths "to" Hod generally open (in the natural and usual development of things). Therefore, to one who has (for example) attained to the 2=9 Grade of Yesod, a substantial part of the Great Work involves working the Paths of Shin and Resh because these are the growths in consciousness which give one access to Hod and integrated it with the aspects (Malkuth and Yesod) already attained.
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THELEMA
thanks for the better understanding of the paths and there relation to the sephiroths! i am suprised i didnt make that connection since i am currently reading your AA book. which by the way is truely truely a wonderful book! i now understand why people are paying up to 1000$ for it, though i almost paid 200$ on ebay but was outbidded, glad i was outbidded:)
so therefore if you are in malkuth, you are not ready for yesod till you fully understand tau,shin,qoph?
"The marks I put in the list are simply when one has completed the Paths which have "attained" one of the Sephiroth"
so thats why attaining K&C w/ HGA is so hard!!! LOL (just joking)
also would it be correct to say try to understand this as like:
1.shin is the blending of malkuth with hod
2.tau the blending of malkuth with yesod
3.qoph the blending of both malkuth with netzach
????like you get the path from mixing the 2 sephiroths connected to the path, or is this not really correct???
thanks for all the info!!
AGAPE
Fr.418
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@bethata418 said
"so therefore if you are in malkuth, you are not ready for yesod till you fully understand tau,shin,qoph?
"
It has always interested me that, in this one spot, all three Paths are given such importance - in a way that they just aren't further up the Tree.The simple answer - to use your language - is that you "aren't ready for Yesod" until you have worked the Path of Tav. That gives direct access.
At the A.'.A.'. level, this is pretty self-evident. The primary task corresponding to Tav is "astral travel," so0-called. It is pretty self-evident how becoming proficient in this raises Malkuth in Assiah to Malkuth in Yetzirah and then bridges to Yesod in Yetzirah - since, in the A.'.A.'. system, all steps along the Middle Pillar are also shifts in the World at which one is working.
Of course, these Sephiroth are worked at different levels. Passing from Malkuth to Yesod in, say, Temple of Thelema is on a whole different (lower) scale. A different task corresponding to the symbolism of Tav (that is, personal growth step) matching the marks that transition.
But there has always been a focus on all three of the Paths opening from Malkuth. In a purist sense, Shin isn't open until one has reached Yesod, and Qoph isn't open until one has reached Hod. However, these three arising from Malkuth are tightly interconnected. For example, they correspond very closely to the three channels of energy arising from the root of the spine. The old Golden Dawn rituals made a big deal out of the three spelling QShTh, qesheth, "bow," as the rainbow arching over the earth as a covenant. This same word is also the Hebrew name for Sagittarius, so it is clearly the set of energies which launches Samekh, that is the natural extension of Tav continuing inward. In A.'.A.'., by comparison, this is the one grade where the non-immediate Paths (in this case Shin and Qoph) are given very specific attention in the Task of the Grade - in this instance, by the Neophyte 1=10 being encouraged to work (but not yet being finally tested) in the Liber HHH and divination practices that are assigned to Shin and Resh respectively.
"also would it be correct to say try to understand this as like:
1.shin is the blending of malkuth with hod
2.tau the blending of malkuth with yesod
3.qoph the blending of both malkuth with netzach
????"Sure, I suppose. But it depends on what you mean by "blending." They don't blend well. There is, for example, a naggingly common tendency for the symbolism of the Path to seem quite antithetical to the energies on either end of it. The supreme patriarchal Tarot image lies between the two feminine planets - The Devil is the path to the bright Sun - a Mars-ruled Path lies between Venus and the Sun, but a Venus-ruled Path lies between Mars and the Sun. And so forth, on and on. There are, in each case, "reasons" for all of this - it totally makes sense when these are seen as energy transitions - but I think the word "blend" would be hard to justify."
Instead, I think the most fruitful avenue is to think of the lower Sephirah as opening itself to receive an influx of the energy or consciousness of the higher one - for example, Shin as the physical body (Malkuth) opening along nerve-channels (Mercury) for energy to flow, or for Tav the physical senses (Malkuth) opening to the direct perception of astral realities behind the wall of the physical senses (Yesod) - which, btw, produces the phenomena that are most evident in the symbols of the card.
That sort of stuff.
"like you get the path from mixing the 2 sephiroths connected to the path, or is this not really correct???"
"
"If it works, I can't think of an objection. I just think "mix" won't be fruitful. You can't "mix" Yesod and Hod and get Resh without a stretch - but you absolutely get the phenomena shown in Resh if you have Yesod opening to what is meant by Hod.
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THELEMA
thanks for all the info this, it really has opened up alot of different doors on the tree of life, and years and years of more work to do on this subject:)
i thought i had did alot of work on the study of the tree of life, and thought i had pretty well got the "basics" (though this is probaly the wrong word) on how the tree of life worked, like how each path got its value in correspondance to the sephiroths and paths around it (like adding and subtacting). and how the sephiroths change etc. etc.
but this has really shown to me, not that i ever doubted it, how infinitely wonderful and complex the tree of life really is!!!thanks!
AGAPEFr.418
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@bethata418 said
"but this has really shown to me, not that i ever doubted it, how infinitely wonderful and complex the tree of life really is!!!"
I painted a Tree of Life with no letters or numbers or Tarot on it, so that one can just gaze at the geometry of it and listen to the deep secrets it tells without words. Check it out in the 'Tools & Toys' section of this forum.
~*~
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THELEMA
speaking of tree of life paintings! does anyone know where to find a dimentional tree??????
also speaking of the 3-d tree, i have heard rumors of an extra unseen path in the 3d tree??? it can only seen if looking at it in 3d??? anyone hearf of this before????
AGAPE
FR.Bethata
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Like 3-D chess from Star Trek, 3-D trees easily excite the imagination.
But they are more games than anything of real doctrinal value. I suggest you put very little value in them.
There are, however, hidden paths - 16 of them - identifiable in the conventional 2-D Tree. These don't become relevant until one is gaining admittence to Geburah, since the lowest of them is the invisible Path between Malkuth and Geburah.
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THELEMA
thanks for the info jim on the 3d tree.
does anyone here know where i can find some pictures on it or anything like that???
AGAPE
Fr.418
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Some basic top-down pictures are given in Vol. IV of the Llewellyn publication of Regardie's Golden Dawn. See the section starting on p. 594 of the paperback or p. 218 of the hardcover - aticled titled "The Tree of Life as Projected in a Solid Sphere."
These pictures aren't what you're looking for, but they're the only thing in print I've seen.
A couple of minutes of research on Google produced several links of people working with 3-D models. The following alternative approaches might be of interest to you:
www.rwgrayprojects.com/Lynn/treeoflife/tol01.html
www.soulinvitation.com/treeoflife
olweb.org/onlinecontributors/app?service=external/ViewTreehouse&sp=2974
www.alysion.org/life/tree.html -
THELEMA
this was accually some pretty cool info, and had some stuff about the tetrahedron which i remember you talking about at your lecture in conjunction to air spirit. thats for the sites!
AGAPE
Fr.418
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Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the law
"i was wondering is this in all cases the student sees the HGA before K&C w/ HGA? also if anyone here could give anymore information about this seeing the angel long before K & C w/ HGA like what happens, is it only sight, is it of your physical angel, etc. that would be great!
"There has been a great exchange here, but if I may just point out, the student need not ever hear or see the angel to attain Tiphareth. Indeed, Thelema being but one road of initiation, there are other ways.
'The Fourth Way' started by George Gurdjieff is one such operating system, and though to attain in their system "Man #4" is functionally equivalent to the grade of adeptus minor, I doubt that any of Gurdjieff's students would have described any kind of ethereal vision or voice other than their own that they associate with their attainment.
As Jim has pointed out in his book, Crowley attained without external sensory confirmation. Personally, I don't concetrate on external sensory confirmation for my students as, ultimately, the actual internal experience is really the only thing of value.
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93,
@Almighty Creator said
"
There has been a great exchange here, but if I may just point out, the student need not ever hear or see the angel to attain Tiphareth. Indeed, Thelema being but one road of initiation, there are other ways. "
I would argue that "hearing and seeing" the angel occurs in any true Adept. It just needs to be understood that "hearing and seeing" doesn't necessarily refer to sensory input as ordinarily experienced. In many known cases, it absolutely is perceived as sensory input, of course.
"
'The Fourth Way' started by George Gurdjieff is one such operating system, and though to attain in their system "Man #4" is functionally equivalent to the grade of adeptus minor, I doubt that any of Gurdjieff's students would have described any kind of ethereal vision or voice other than their own that they associate with their attainment."See my comment above. Maybe they would, maybe they wouldn't, but I agree with you that attainment wouldn't necessarily require the sensory aspects of the experience.
"As Jim has pointed out in his book, Crowley attained without external sensory confirmation. Personally, I don't concetrate on external sensory confirmation for my students as, ultimately, the actual internal experience is really the only thing of value."
I'd add that the fruits of the attainment, realized in the "outer" world, are also of immense value. That is, the Adept contributes something to the world which is wholly unique to themselves, by virtue of their attainment.
93 93/93
David
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Dear David,
Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the Law,
@dshoemaker said
"
See my comment above. Maybe they would, maybe they wouldn't, but I agree with you that attainment wouldn't necessarily require the sensory aspects of the experience. "Agreed then. And may I just say that it seems to me that if the adept be properly trained and grounded in rational thought that in the event he does experience the K & C as an experience of the external senses he would still not mistake that for the voice of anything but himself. I am of course referring to one who has attained Tiphareth and not one who is experiencing a preliminary vision.
Wouldn't you agree?
@dshoemaker said
"
I'd add that the fruits of the attainment, realized in the "outer" world, are also of immense value. That is, the Adept contributes something to the world which is wholly unique to themselves, by virtue of their attainment.
"Well, I agree to the extent that one who is below paroketh is nearly incapable of contributing to the world. I mean this in the sense that one who isn't awakened into the consciousness of Tiphareth is still identifying himself with his thoughts and his emotions and his drives and his body.
For such a one who is unable to realize his identity as separate from these transitory experiences he is blown by the winds of whim. Unable to separate his identity from his thoughts he feels a challenge to his opinion not as a welcome opportunity to challenge the processing of the instrument of his mind but as an attack on his personal self. Let me rephrase that. One who is below paroketh does not truly see the mind as an instrument in the same way that he sees a microscope, instead he sees his mind and the functions of that mind as his “self”. He would not take offense if someone used a rag to clean the lense on his microscope, but he would take offense to someone pointing out a malfunction of his rational process. However one who had opened Tiphareth would welcome the chance to bend his mind towards a new challenge not getting upset at all.
Of course this is only the smallest example of what confusion the student lives in below paroketh. Gurdjieff (or perhaps it was ouspensky) said something to the effect that to be below “man # 4" (Tiphareth) is to be the most miserable of animals. An apt analogy I think when we consider we generally accept that animals don’t worry about things.
Anyway I’m running on and it’s getting late. Let me just say that it is nice to have a place to go for intelligent dialogue. Thank you guys for having me.
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Is Liber Samekh more direct or somehow better than the Abramelin Operation? I see it's different names and words.
I'm in a strange place mentally because I grew up in an oppressive Christian environment, so naturally rebelled and truly despised it. Recently, I have really come to appreciate Mystic Christianity and am at the point now where I feel it is as defensible as basically anything else I am familiar with. In fact, I really respect the ideas as I've come to understand them in recent years.
So, I know the answer ultimately comes from my own head, but this is just a solicitation for advice. In Jason Newcomb's "21st Century Mage," he lays out a basic foundation anyone can use to attain K&C using whatever means feel comfortable for him, personally. Is there any particular reason Liber Samekh would work better? I'm reading here that it took AC 4 years to attain K&C, meanwhile both Abramelin and Newcomb say the operation should take 6 months.
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Regarding your question on the best method to attain the K&C:
May I suggest that you need to do some background thinking here - plus a lot of private work?
Crowley was not ready for the K&C when he first set out to accomplish it. Unlike most of us, he had huge advantages in terms of available time, Allan Bennett's help, his period in Ceylon studying yoga, etc. He still had to wait.
If, as you say, you are still dealing with a lot of issues regarding received ideas in your upbringing, then that sounds like one of the areas you'd have to address first. That alone (just to be depressing) might be the labor of decades.
The HGA is not going to turn out to be something separate from all we've experienced, but something essentially present in that set of experiences. Only when we are fully aware of how we came to where we are now, can we, in my judgement, expect to commence the 'final run-up' to the K&C. At that point, the method will be indicated, we are told, by the Angel Itself.
Edward
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So, in your opinion, the original Abramelin Operation operating instructions and the newer Newcomb instructions aren't accurate? What I mean is, if one's life affords him time to spend on the operation, why shouldn't he succeed within 6 months (if not sooner, as Newcomb states) unless he runs into the obvious lack of willpower or other life difficulties? Having read Newcomb's timeline/breakdown, I must say, it doesn't seem that it would be quite that difficult if you knew it was going to take 6 months or less. Honestly, it sounds sort of enjoyable to me; continually adding psychological pressure of yearning. At the most, you're talking 4 hours a day.
@Edward Mason said
"The HGA is not going to turn out to be something separate from all we've experienced, but something essentially present in that set of experiences. Only when we are fully aware of how we came to where we are now, can we, in my judgement, expect to commence the 'final run-up' to the K&C. At that point, the method will be indicated, we are told, by the Angel Itself.
"Will Parfitt gives extremely simple advice on how to communicate with it. Jason Newcomb recommends a super-simple book that he considers an easy method that does not offer the full K&C, but opens the path to communication safe and easy (can't remember the name of it, though). There are lots of techniques and ideas relating to K&C, even a few Chaos techniques. I haven't spent any time on any of these techniques yet and so was just curious if Liber Samekh is somehow supposed to be more direct or "better" than other methods. Having read it a few times, it does not resonate with me, which is probably a bad start.
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@Redd Fezz said
"Will Parfitt gives extremely simple advice on how to communicate with it. Jason Newcomb recommends a super-simple book that he considers an easy method that does not offer the full K&C, but opens the path to communication safe and easy (can't remember the name of it, though)."
"Communication with it" shouldn't be at all confused with the K&C. In A.'.A.'. terms, "communication with it" comes essentially from the beginning - certainly by the time one is settling into 1=10 - but that experience isn't at all the same as the K&C.
As far as accelerated programs, the A.'.A.'.'s own instruction - the formal self-initiation into 5=6 Within, Liber VIII - is exactly that, a quintessentializing of the Abramelin process. ordoaa.org/liber8.htm - Liber Samekh definitely stirs and accelerates (we tend especially to recommend it for 2=9 or, in fact, for anyone who believes they are ready), but readiness still plays into it.
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Thanks, Jim!
This leads me to a follow-up question, which I fear is REALLY going to sound stupid because it even goes against my common sense... Does a person NEED to understand and be familiar with all the ideas in Thelemic rituals or does understanding tend to come with practice? I ask because people always tell me to stop studying and practice more (meanwhile, I generally feel these people should practice less and study more FIRST
) and, when I flip through DuQuette's "The Magick of Aleister Crowley," I am struck with the obvious: the book is presented like this: 1. Here's a little bit about the man, 2. Here's the Book of The Law, 3. Here are the rituals. Go at it. Rodney Orpheus' book is similarly simplistic. Crowley's writings themselves always make me feel like I need to read everything he's written several times before even attempting. -
There's a balance between the extremes. I definitely side with a bit of study first. But no, you don't have to understand a ritual thoroughly before doing it. Most of the time, you don't stand a chance of understanding it until after a stretch of repeatedly performing it.