the path to knowledge & conversation
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THELEMA
this was accually some pretty cool info, and had some stuff about the tetrahedron which i remember you talking about at your lecture in conjunction to air spirit. thats for the sites!
AGAPE
Fr.418
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Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the law
"i was wondering is this in all cases the student sees the HGA before K&C w/ HGA? also if anyone here could give anymore information about this seeing the angel long before K & C w/ HGA like what happens, is it only sight, is it of your physical angel, etc. that would be great!
"There has been a great exchange here, but if I may just point out, the student need not ever hear or see the angel to attain Tiphareth. Indeed, Thelema being but one road of initiation, there are other ways.
'The Fourth Way' started by George Gurdjieff is one such operating system, and though to attain in their system "Man #4" is functionally equivalent to the grade of adeptus minor, I doubt that any of Gurdjieff's students would have described any kind of ethereal vision or voice other than their own that they associate with their attainment.
As Jim has pointed out in his book, Crowley attained without external sensory confirmation. Personally, I don't concetrate on external sensory confirmation for my students as, ultimately, the actual internal experience is really the only thing of value.
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93,
@Almighty Creator said
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There has been a great exchange here, but if I may just point out, the student need not ever hear or see the angel to attain Tiphareth. Indeed, Thelema being but one road of initiation, there are other ways. "
I would argue that "hearing and seeing" the angel occurs in any true Adept. It just needs to be understood that "hearing and seeing" doesn't necessarily refer to sensory input as ordinarily experienced. In many known cases, it absolutely is perceived as sensory input, of course.
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'The Fourth Way' started by George Gurdjieff is one such operating system, and though to attain in their system "Man #4" is functionally equivalent to the grade of adeptus minor, I doubt that any of Gurdjieff's students would have described any kind of ethereal vision or voice other than their own that they associate with their attainment."See my comment above. Maybe they would, maybe they wouldn't, but I agree with you that attainment wouldn't necessarily require the sensory aspects of the experience.
"As Jim has pointed out in his book, Crowley attained without external sensory confirmation. Personally, I don't concetrate on external sensory confirmation for my students as, ultimately, the actual internal experience is really the only thing of value."
I'd add that the fruits of the attainment, realized in the "outer" world, are also of immense value. That is, the Adept contributes something to the world which is wholly unique to themselves, by virtue of their attainment.
93 93/93
David
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Dear David,
Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the Law,
@dshoemaker said
"
See my comment above. Maybe they would, maybe they wouldn't, but I agree with you that attainment wouldn't necessarily require the sensory aspects of the experience. "Agreed then. And may I just say that it seems to me that if the adept be properly trained and grounded in rational thought that in the event he does experience the K & C as an experience of the external senses he would still not mistake that for the voice of anything but himself. I am of course referring to one who has attained Tiphareth and not one who is experiencing a preliminary vision.
Wouldn't you agree?
@dshoemaker said
"
I'd add that the fruits of the attainment, realized in the "outer" world, are also of immense value. That is, the Adept contributes something to the world which is wholly unique to themselves, by virtue of their attainment.
"Well, I agree to the extent that one who is below paroketh is nearly incapable of contributing to the world. I mean this in the sense that one who isn't awakened into the consciousness of Tiphareth is still identifying himself with his thoughts and his emotions and his drives and his body.
For such a one who is unable to realize his identity as separate from these transitory experiences he is blown by the winds of whim. Unable to separate his identity from his thoughts he feels a challenge to his opinion not as a welcome opportunity to challenge the processing of the instrument of his mind but as an attack on his personal self. Let me rephrase that. One who is below paroketh does not truly see the mind as an instrument in the same way that he sees a microscope, instead he sees his mind and the functions of that mind as his “self”. He would not take offense if someone used a rag to clean the lense on his microscope, but he would take offense to someone pointing out a malfunction of his rational process. However one who had opened Tiphareth would welcome the chance to bend his mind towards a new challenge not getting upset at all.
Of course this is only the smallest example of what confusion the student lives in below paroketh. Gurdjieff (or perhaps it was ouspensky) said something to the effect that to be below “man # 4" (Tiphareth) is to be the most miserable of animals. An apt analogy I think when we consider we generally accept that animals don’t worry about things.
Anyway I’m running on and it’s getting late. Let me just say that it is nice to have a place to go for intelligent dialogue. Thank you guys for having me.
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Is Liber Samekh more direct or somehow better than the Abramelin Operation? I see it's different names and words.
I'm in a strange place mentally because I grew up in an oppressive Christian environment, so naturally rebelled and truly despised it. Recently, I have really come to appreciate Mystic Christianity and am at the point now where I feel it is as defensible as basically anything else I am familiar with. In fact, I really respect the ideas as I've come to understand them in recent years.
So, I know the answer ultimately comes from my own head, but this is just a solicitation for advice. In Jason Newcomb's "21st Century Mage," he lays out a basic foundation anyone can use to attain K&C using whatever means feel comfortable for him, personally. Is there any particular reason Liber Samekh would work better? I'm reading here that it took AC 4 years to attain K&C, meanwhile both Abramelin and Newcomb say the operation should take 6 months.
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Regarding your question on the best method to attain the K&C:
May I suggest that you need to do some background thinking here - plus a lot of private work?
Crowley was not ready for the K&C when he first set out to accomplish it. Unlike most of us, he had huge advantages in terms of available time, Allan Bennett's help, his period in Ceylon studying yoga, etc. He still had to wait.
If, as you say, you are still dealing with a lot of issues regarding received ideas in your upbringing, then that sounds like one of the areas you'd have to address first. That alone (just to be depressing) might be the labor of decades.
The HGA is not going to turn out to be something separate from all we've experienced, but something essentially present in that set of experiences. Only when we are fully aware of how we came to where we are now, can we, in my judgement, expect to commence the 'final run-up' to the K&C. At that point, the method will be indicated, we are told, by the Angel Itself.
Edward
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So, in your opinion, the original Abramelin Operation operating instructions and the newer Newcomb instructions aren't accurate? What I mean is, if one's life affords him time to spend on the operation, why shouldn't he succeed within 6 months (if not sooner, as Newcomb states) unless he runs into the obvious lack of willpower or other life difficulties? Having read Newcomb's timeline/breakdown, I must say, it doesn't seem that it would be quite that difficult if you knew it was going to take 6 months or less. Honestly, it sounds sort of enjoyable to me; continually adding psychological pressure of yearning. At the most, you're talking 4 hours a day.
@Edward Mason said
"The HGA is not going to turn out to be something separate from all we've experienced, but something essentially present in that set of experiences. Only when we are fully aware of how we came to where we are now, can we, in my judgement, expect to commence the 'final run-up' to the K&C. At that point, the method will be indicated, we are told, by the Angel Itself.
"Will Parfitt gives extremely simple advice on how to communicate with it. Jason Newcomb recommends a super-simple book that he considers an easy method that does not offer the full K&C, but opens the path to communication safe and easy (can't remember the name of it, though). There are lots of techniques and ideas relating to K&C, even a few Chaos techniques. I haven't spent any time on any of these techniques yet and so was just curious if Liber Samekh is somehow supposed to be more direct or "better" than other methods. Having read it a few times, it does not resonate with me, which is probably a bad start.
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@Redd Fezz said
"Will Parfitt gives extremely simple advice on how to communicate with it. Jason Newcomb recommends a super-simple book that he considers an easy method that does not offer the full K&C, but opens the path to communication safe and easy (can't remember the name of it, though)."
"Communication with it" shouldn't be at all confused with the K&C. In A.'.A.'. terms, "communication with it" comes essentially from the beginning - certainly by the time one is settling into 1=10 - but that experience isn't at all the same as the K&C.
As far as accelerated programs, the A.'.A.'.'s own instruction - the formal self-initiation into 5=6 Within, Liber VIII - is exactly that, a quintessentializing of the Abramelin process. ordoaa.org/liber8.htm - Liber Samekh definitely stirs and accelerates (we tend especially to recommend it for 2=9 or, in fact, for anyone who believes they are ready), but readiness still plays into it.
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Thanks, Jim!
This leads me to a follow-up question, which I fear is REALLY going to sound stupid because it even goes against my common sense... Does a person NEED to understand and be familiar with all the ideas in Thelemic rituals or does understanding tend to come with practice? I ask because people always tell me to stop studying and practice more (meanwhile, I generally feel these people should practice less and study more FIRST
) and, when I flip through DuQuette's "The Magick of Aleister Crowley," I am struck with the obvious: the book is presented like this: 1. Here's a little bit about the man, 2. Here's the Book of The Law, 3. Here are the rituals. Go at it. Rodney Orpheus' book is similarly simplistic. Crowley's writings themselves always make me feel like I need to read everything he's written several times before even attempting. -
There's a balance between the extremes. I definitely side with a bit of study first. But no, you don't have to understand a ritual thoroughly before doing it. Most of the time, you don't stand a chance of understanding it until after a stretch of repeatedly performing it.
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The K&C of our HGA.s ; the inner genius for 418. The Master Therion worked on a system of such attainment for humanity. What about those who are possessed of genius (and benefitting all thereby; e.g. Tesla and the many inventors and innovators of technology/new scientific theory who have lessened human suffering and discomfort) without any magical training or even interest? Are they already somehow doing their True Will?
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Everybody is doing his/her true will. They just don't know it.
In L.V.X.,
One who doesn't know, either.
chrys333 -
93,
I agree with Chris - everyone is doing their TW to a greater or lesser extent. But some of us are enacting the shadow aspects more, with a lot of egoic limitations and barriers. The extreme example would be a dictator of a Third World country who really wants to make things better, at least at first, but can't address his unresolved anxieties, and so projects them onto his opponents, other countries, or the World Bank.
Some people just do really clever stuff, and impress others. Nothing wrong with that, except it can be narrow. Others (Newton and Einstein come to mind) have deep curiosity about the universe as a whole, and speculate on the greater truths.
I see the aim in Thelema as an increase in consciousness. The more I know about the agglomeration of things conventionally called 'Edward', the more I can uncover my TW and express it. Once that expression is pure enough (19 lifetimes should do nicely...) I am ready to move past the egoic performance of it, and let the HGA in to really take over.
Conversely, I imagine anyone who has had the K&C is able to better express his or her TW, because there is more confidence or faith in what they're doing at the times they're not exactly sure what they are doing. It's more of a pure impulse than a decision.
93 93/93,
Edward
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@bethata418 said
"THELEMA
i have read somewhere (though i now forget where LOL) about the student seeing a vision of his HGA sometime before acually attaining K & C w/ HGA. from what i read crowley experienced this when he received liber AL, yet it wasnt for like another 4 year till he attained K & C w/ HGA.
i was wondering is this in all cases the student sees the HGA before K&C w/ HGA?
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this reminds me about my reading of the first meeting of L Ron Hubbard and JW Parsons. The latter was impressed with Hubbards' assertions that he had seen his own HGA many a time. -
Gerry, 93,
First, define 'see'.
Would that be a vision, perceived as within or without, of a golden/white/violet/nice shade of green, winged being? Or of a transcendent brilliance? Would it be a preception of the wonder and beauty of the world? Would it be a clear understanding that we are part of what we call the HGA? All these could be aspects of it.
It's possible that all along the way, we see the HGA in one way or another. But perhaps only after K&C, or at least a close approach to it, might we realise <i>what</i> we've been seeing.
93 93/93,
Edward
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you know somewhere around here there is like a thread with a bunch of comments about this, i think its called the vision of the HGA, idk.. but there is alot of great comments on it, by everyone as well as jim!
93s
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Perhaps this?
www.heruraha.net/viewtopic.php?p=1110(Found by clicking Search above and using the Google window to search for "Vision of Adonai".)