LBRP
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Malaclypse 93,
"I am a chronic, sometimes even bordering on schizophrenic paranoia."
All I can suggest, then, is that perhaps magick is not a solution, but something that makes the problems you face worse. Have you had a diagnosis made? That doesn't mean they'll lock you away. In Toronto, we had a schizophrenic who worked for many years as a professor of psychology. He learned to monitor his own case, and up his medication when he started noticing his life-patterns were going screwy (staying up late, finding he couldn't sleep, etc.). The University put up with him, because he was just fantastic at teaching abnormal psychology.
But, he had to admit he had an issue to manage before he got to that point.
I definitely think psilocybin and other psychedelics would be counter-indicated if you really are suffering from a condition that impairs your ability to manage life (whether it's one of the schizophrenic conditions or something else). Such things are treatable, but not escapable.
"Also, in relation to all this, any suggestions on how to,. with certainty, find out whether or not I have attracted any astral spirits, demons etc.? I thought about contacting a benign spirit and simply ask it. In such a case what sort of entity would be recommended?"
I wouldn't recomend any entity at all. If you are suffering from some kind of serious disorder, telling a benign entity from a bad one becomes impossible, because the essential boundary markers you need for working magically won't be in place. Benign entities and hostile ones become interchangeable.
The first sephirah the magician works is Malkuth, and the virtue of that sephirah is Discrimination. If you can't discriminate and decide for yourself what might be astral spirits or demons, and what is your own internal disorder, I can't see magick being a helpful path at all.
I guess that's not what you wanted to hear, but I don't have any other suggestion to offer.
93 93/93,
Edward
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Edward
@Edward Mason said
"All I can suggest, then, is that perhaps magick is not a solution, but something that makes the problems you face worse. Have you had a diagnosis made? That doesn't mean they'll lock you away."
Sorry, I guess I was too obscure, but I didn't mean that as vocabularly as it seems you took it. I'm certainly not schizo. I have a diagnosis of AS, but that is a rather mild case at that, so it shouldn't be a problem when it comes to defining which category some entity belongs to (in fact it should be the opposite when it comes to definition of things at all).
@Edward Mason said
"I definitely think psilocybin and other psychedelics would be counter-indicated if you really are suffering from a condition that impairs your ability to manage life (whether it's one of the schizophrenic conditions or something else). Such things are treatable, but not escapable."
I'm not so sure it makes me incapable to manage life in general, but I am overtly sensitive, so I guess you may be right saying that magick isn't really my thing, which is frustrating since it's about the only thing I'm interested in.
And it seems to me so far that magick for one thing could answer what psychedelics do with the brain. Ever since I started practicing I've wanted to know that. E.g. there are certainly other entities included in the mushroom trip and from what I understand they could very well be undynes or sylphs so I want to find out if they look and act the same.
@Edward Mason said
"I wouldn't recomend any entity at all. If you are suffering from some kind of serious disorder, telling a benign entity from a bad one becomes impossible, because the essential boundary markers you need for working magically won't be in place. Benign entities and hostile ones become interchangeable."
Hm, certain of that? Because I guess this is what it all comes down to in the end of my case vs magick. The case I have is one that makes me more obsessed with exact definitions than neurotypicals, so it sounds instead like I should be better at it, but on the other hand I haven't gotten far in magick so I still don't know if that defining ability applies in the ethereal realm/s. E.g. I read in Regardie's The Middle Pillar that things are opposite from subconscious to conscious (that yin conciously is yang subconsciously and opposite with Chia/animus/conscious yang...), so it seems I might be obsessed with definitions here because I suck at it in the spiritual realm. Could that be correct?
@Edward Mason said
"The first sephirah the magician works is Malkuth, and the virtue of that sephirah is Discrimination. If you can't discriminate and decide for yourself what might be astral spirits or demons, and what is your own internal disorder, I can't see magick being a helpful path at all."
I'll certainly consider this, but I think I need to have a chat or two with some undyne or angel before I really decide to quit.
Thanks a lot for your help!
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Malaclypse, 93,
Okay, you were the lucky recipient of my "It's Friday and I'm grumpy" lecture. That wasn't fair to you - sorry.
I Googled Asperger's and got a slightly clearer picture of where you're at. I should add that I had a close friend who could not lessen or even examine her need to be involved with magick, and she did have psychotic episodes. When she finally went off her meds, she was toast. I still see her on the street sometimes with her bags, and once or twice I've talked with her and been given a lecture about the dark forces threatening us all.
I guess the main point I would make here is to suggest you look at what you're aiming for with magick. I have little interest in dealings with spirits per se, though obviously I regularly use magical techniques in my own work.
I came into this with a strictly philosophy-of-Thelema approach: that is, What do I really want to become and to do? Magick offers a practical path to realising that, but I don't see a lot of things that you (for instance) might often perceive. In my own work, the visual component is not very strong, though it does cut in emphatically at times. What I'm after is a search for the Centre and thus a better defined or appreciated relationship with the Whole. I figure that's a lifetime quest, at the least. And one that also needs questioning at times for its own obsessions.
I do believe there is really no such thing as an evil of benign spirit. There are just entities with characteristics and functions. Some spirits would be utterly destructive to me right now, but that would be because of my lack of preparedness, not their 'evil'. The Work has ordeals, which we're told "shall be half known and half concealed" - we can anticipate some aspects of what's coming up, but there will always be surprises and setbacks. Or sudden, unexpected advances.
Balancing ourselves is the primary task, at least to the point we can keep moving ahead. The only thing that occurs to me this morning is that you might want to look at devotional work (if you'e not already doing any). Liber Resh, mantra chanting ... there are various approaches. This tends to centre us more, especially if we're "I live in my head" types. It also offers 'back-avenues" for the HGA to communicate to us.
93 93/93,
Edward
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I spoke to someone regarding your situation, He said it would be best if you practiced invocation of spirits that would strengthen you before you do anymore banishing work. Otherwise, the "vaccuum" would have the old experiences of drug use boomerang in.
Just relaying what he said.
I do remember when I was doing TM, that Maharishi said drugs will open the door, but destroy the lock. So perhaps there is a tear in the fence that keeps the different dimensions separate.Hope you resolve this and gain comfort and ease in your path.
chrys333 -
@Edward Mason said
"Okay, you were the lucky recipient of my "It's Friday and I'm grumpy" lecture. That wasn't fair to you - sorry."
I didn't take anything you wrote as grumpy at all so no apology necessary; I was simply interested in the tips you gave.
But seeing as I get apologies from people here when I never notice even a slight bit of grumpiness I get scared that I might seem rude without knowing it, so sorry to anyone here who might've taken me that way.
@Edward Mason said
"I should add that I had a close friend who could not lessen or even examine her need to be involved with magick, and she did have psychotic episodes. When she finally went off her meds, she was toast."
Sorry to hear that. I'll take that warning into account, but I have to ask if the fact that she got toast might've been because she was mentally inhibited during her magickal work so that her mind got used to that kind of stimuli and it overloaded when she got back to "reality"?
@Edward Mason said
"I guess the main point I would make here is to suggest you look at what you're aiming for with magick. I have little interest in dealings with spirits per se, though obviously I regularly use magical techniques in my own work."
@Edward Mason said
"I came into this with a strictly philosophy-of-Thelema approach: that is, What do I really want to become and to do? SNIP! What I'm after is a search for the Centre and thus a better defined or appreciated relationship with the Whole. I figure that's a lifetime quest, at the least. And one that also needs questioning at times for its own obsessions."
Yes, that sounds a bit like my own search too. I have a vague notion of wanting to become enlightened (vague in the sense that I don't really know where it will take me, but so far centering sounds like a good plan) because I've recognized many of my own thoughts and ideas in writings on the subject throughout the years. With that I want to be of some use to others and so magick seems like the best (because best formulated) approach to help people help themselves explore life to the potential I think many of them are missing out on.
@Edward Mason said
"I do believe there is really no such thing as an evil of benign spirit. There are just entities with characteristics and functions. Some spirits would be utterly destructive to me right now, but that would be because of my lack of preparedness, not their 'evil'."
I see, but essentially that could be said about humans as well, but among us there are several groups I'd rather not have to face on their turf, like terrorists or people who hate me for my nationality etc. It's things like opposite motives than my own that troubles me, I guess. In another thread on this forum I read that there are theories of a 'war in heaven'. Now that I write this it seems that studying up on the collective rules in the spiritual realm seems like a good idea. Would that help do you think?
And thanks again for the help! I think Liber Resh sounds like another good idea.
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@Chris Hanlon said
"I spoke to someone regarding your situation, He said it would be best if you practiced invocation of spirits that would strengthen you before you do anymore banishing work. Otherwise, the "vaccuum" would have the old experiences of drug use boomerang in."
Aha, that sounds reasonable. Thanks! But does the vacuum mean the transition of the subconscious when it allows the higher realms work on this one? Could I also ask if you have any tips for specific spirits or is that an individual thing to answer?
@Chris Hanlon said
"I do remember when I was doing TM, that Maharishi said drugs will open the door, but destroy the lock. So perhaps there is a tear in the fence that keeps the different dimensions separate."
I hope that isn't the case, but it sure sounds like it could be it. Dang! And thanks a lot for your answer!
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Malaclypse, 93,
I don't think you need to feel bothered that you come across as aggressive. But since I often have the same problem with myself ... feel free to do so! If we didn't have ourselves to worry about, what would we do with the time?
As for my friend, she has a long, tortuous background. Magick, though, was a contributor in exacerbating her condition, even while she was convinced it was helping.
"...among us there are several groups I'd rather not have to face on their turf, like terrorists or people who hate me for my nationality etc. It's things like opposite motives than my own that troubles me, I guess. In another thread on this forum I read that there are theories of a 'war in heaven'. Now that I write this it seems that studying up on the collective rules in the spiritual realm seems like a good idea. Would that help do you think? "
I agree fully that there are situations to be avoided. I will NOT again walk through the South Side gof Chicago at night (don't ask....)
But one of the toughest issues to face in the Mysteries is that (a) we are generating our own life-situation, and (b) the hazards, threats and opposition we anticipate seem hazardous, threatening and opposing because of undigested or unaccepted or unassimilated ideas we carry within ourselves. If we approach situations with the assumption that we must beware of evil, then we have already, in a way, 'conjured' evil into our presence. There's no way out of this except by giving up the "Where does the threat lie?"game in our heads.
The war in heaven? My understanding of Thelema is that looks to transcend all dualities. Even the most cosmic of conflicts is simply, in the end, two mirrors reflecting each other's images. If we start thinking in terms of evil and demons, that's what appears in one mirror, and *voila *- it's immediately there in the other.
Address the fear first, and then the threat. Except, if you address the idea(s) underlying fear, the threat tends to disappear.
One other comment. Chris passed on:
"He said it would be best if you practiced invocation of spirits that would strengthen you before you do anymore banishing work. "
Okay. But how do you do an invocation without banishing first, and afterwards? Or did your contact mean invocation in the sense of chanting a Name like a mantra, which wouldn't call for a banishing first?
93 93/93,
Edward
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@Edward Mason said
"The war in heaven? My understanding of Thelema is that looks to transcend all dualities. Even the most cosmic of conflicts is simply, in the end, two mirrors reflecting each other's images. If we start thinking in terms of evil and demons, that's what appears in one mirror, and *voila *- it's immediately there in the other.
Address the fear first, and then the threat. Except, if you address the idea(s) underlying fear, the threat tends to disappear."
Yes, that's an ideal I agree with but I admit I still struggle with getting it into my head.
But let me rephrase the question, your honour. What should I bear in mind when I call upon an entity and what should I be prepared for when opening the rift to other realms if I want to stay as safe as possible? -
Two answers come to mind. One is that I don't know what practices you're doing, what the intent is, how much you understand about it all and what effect the work is really having on you, and that I'm therefore not the person who should answer that question.
The other answer is a general one: that in magick, we formulate an intent, and that intent shapes what follows. If we go into ritual (say, to call on a healing influence) with a sense of "Will there be demons lurking?" then we are confusing ourselves, and so compromising the outcome. We are carrying an element of fear around which fear-ful things will coalesce or crystallize. Intent - Will - is a determining factor, and for things to go right there may need to be many years of self-purification and balancing work necessary to ensure our rituals are effective. That's why we have Mystery Schools.
Edward
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In the Bible it says (if you care): "Fear of the Lord is the beginning of Wisdom." Also, everyone must die -- mortificatio -- surrender their will to that of the Divine Will. We all have to go sometime! Just this afternoon, thinking along these lines, I had a fantastic hour-long meditation. Malaclypse, I actually used your idea about talking to my HGA beforehand. Previously, I had feared the Kundalini Rising experience, but today I went into meditation with the intention of experiencing this, possibly not today, but sometime in the future and when the fear of the unknown crept in, I embraced it, and I embraced visions of death (like the monks who meditate amongst rotting corpses) and the fear and the threat just faded away. The thought of Kali crushing me underfoot brought a smile to my lips.
I charged up with the LBRP and MPR beforehand. This is officially the beginning of my personalized "abramelin operation"... hope it works.
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Okay, that cleared up a few details for me, so thanks again.
And I do have one specific thing I'd like help with determining: The spirits of dead people hanging around me, seeking me out for help or whatever. In your expertise what's true and not about that whole subject? Do spirits from dead people or something else become attracted to the energies that comes from magick work?
What I for one thing want is to be able to either help them on their way or simply make them stay away from me and be certain they do, or at least be certain they don't somehow bother me. (I have verified they do exist somehow and can inflict damage and information, by personal experience.) -
@Redd Fezz said
"The thought of Kali crushing me underfoot brought a smile to my lips.
I charged up with the LBRP and MPR beforehand. This is officially the beginning of my personalized "abramelin operation"... hope it works."
I wish you the best of luck with it! And that is perhaps a good advice for me too further on, but I think in my case I have more work getting over the impulsive chock reactions I get when I "sink through" certain levels of consciousness in my meditation and get makyo glimpses (it's like the feeling of going downhill in a rollercoaster, lasting about 1/10 of a second).
Btw, I had never heard of those monks before. Sounds extremely extreme imo. Gotta check it out. -
@Malaclypse said
"Okay, that cleared up a few details for me, so thanks again.
And I do have one specific thing I'd like help with determining: The spirits of dead people hanging around me, seeking me out for help or whatever. In your expertise what's true and not about that whole subject? Do spirits from dead people or something else become attracted to the energies that comes from magick work?
What I for one thing want is to be able to either help them on their way or simply make them stay away from me and be certain they do, or at least be certain they don't somehow bother me. (I have verified they do exist somehow and can inflict damage and information, by personal experience.)"From what I've learned, the only thing that hangs around after someone dies is their husk/shell/qlippoth which is not them but the sum of some knowledge they've accumulated. The fact that it is discarded upon death probably says a lot about its relative importance. When an elemental animates the Qlippoth, you have "ghosts" but these are not the actual dead people and the elementals will show you whatever you want to see as long as you're giving them attention.
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Malaclypse, I have only worked magic in a committed manner for about 2 years, though I studied it and messed around quite a bit prior to that. But I have done my work under the guidance of experienced people and in a well structured context. But keep my minimal experience in mind when evaluating my comments. And, please, anyone with more experience, correct anything I screw up.
Although I haven't personally worked with a large number of magicians and not personally known very many more, I have never heard of these sorts of affects from doing the LBRP. I get the impression, that one should not have to worry about such things, whether the bizarre effects or dealing with dead people, when only just starting off with the LBRP. Like Edward has said several times already and Fezz has reinforced based on his own experience, these sorts of things almost certainly come from within one's self.
I have paid attention to this thread all along, but have stayed out of it, worrying that I'd be speaking out of turn. But I keep thinking of a parrallel with something I have seen repeatedly amongst people starting out with meditation. They get swept up by every little sensation and wonder if it indicates something of great importance. Considering the goal of meditation, these things only serve to distract the person. If you want to experience weird things, then do something to create them. If you want to meditate and achieve samadhi, then you must ignore them and move on.
Likewise with magic, the LBRP should help to ground, balance, strengthen, etc. you. Everything else simply distracts. Also, if you have recently started with the LBRP, then you have only started waaaayyyyyy at the beginning of magic. Don't expect ground shaking results yet, at least not honest and objective ones. And banish any thoughts of your self-importance in the big scheme of the magical universe. Spirits of any sort are probably not going to come to you to harm you or to seek your help. You've only just started. They have better people to munch on right now. I suspect that your work might need to involve overcoming such ideas about yourslef and achieving a more balanced view of yourself.
Expect to work slowly and systematically, producing subtle effects - not massive fireworks. Build a solid foundation, creating a connection with LVX and balancing the elements within yourself. Spend maybe even a few years doing this. So definitely don't start invoking spirits like someone suggested. If you just started the LBRP, then invocation lies way down the line.
I think someone already said this, but reevaluate your interests in magic. You mentioned wanting to help dead people. I have no experience with such things, but based on my experience with magic, I'd say that, at this point, you can't. Focus on yourself. Magic requires a lifetime of work. You don't need to achieve everything now, next week, or next year.
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Dear Edward,
I don't know. I'll ask about how to invoke without banishing. Maybe, you have it - it is to build up by meditation and prayer, and study.
I'm going to send him the question, now.
In L.V.X.,
chrys333 -
First off, thanks so much for your help Redd and sasha!
Second, while meditating yesterday I got to a philosophy that helped me get over my fears (at least for the time being) thanks to some of the suggestions given in this thread:
Existence can be defined as nothing but vibration and life as resonance with certain frequencies. The frequency of God is that which is harmonic with all other frequencies taking the shapes of material (when I experience something as solid material it just means I'm vibrating in the same frequency and thusly attract it), so this is why we attract things by choice and there are no enemies but our own fears of them as such. The task of getting over any fear of the unknown is thereby neglicent since the only task is to choose to ignore everything but the most unknown and hidden shape which is the final turnstile for all beings, so there can't be any wrong address on the way to Samadhi. Hope this could help anyone who's even more ignorant than me on this subject.Third: It seems to me it could be important in some situations to contact the dead, because I've been helped by what other sources (some homeopaths) have affirmed was a deceased relative of mine. I had several explanatory dreams which helped me and saw its face in some kind of half sleep. From other sources there is a lot of talk about lots of people dying today needing help getting across into the light (the classical dilemma of ghosts) so if something could be done to facilitate their situation I'd like to be able to.
Nothing of this of course proves that I couldn't simply have been contacted by an elemental anyway, but it acted just like the relative would've and gave testimony in the same helpful way I imagine accurate for it.
So what do you think with this added? And please tell me to stop asking questions about dead people if you don't think that's suiting for this forum in which case I'm sorry to have brought it up. -
@Malaclypse said
"Nothing of this of course proves that I couldn't simply have been contacted by an elemental anyway, but it acted just like the relative would've and gave testimony in the same helpful way I imagine accurate for it.
So what do you think with this added?"I still recommend the same thing.
1st Point: Consider for what purpose Thelemites do magic. As your first task, you need to attain the knowledge and conversation of your holy guardian angel and determine your True Will. Helping out ghosts with magic will not help you do that. After succeeding in determining your True Will, you might conceivably find that it includes helping ghosts, but you don't know that yet. So any work towards that will serve as a distraction.
2nd Point: I have great skepticism about ghosts. I question that you even encountered an elemental. Perhaps you did encounter one of either, but perhaps you projected something from within yourself. How would the homeopath know you encountered a ghost? Why believe hir? Based on what does whoever say that deceased people increasingly have trouble crossing "over"? Analyze the evidence. Develop alternative interpretations. If you find multiple interepretations possible, then you can't accept that you encountered a ghost. But all of this concern about ghosts does serve to embue your magical work with a sense of great or even cosmic importance. That can create a trap, turning magic into something to boost your ego and reaffirm your present identity, rather than challenging that identity and creating transformation and growth. I don't even like Crowley's aeonic history for this reason. It places magicians and magic at center of everything. The last thing a bunch of ego-maniac magicians (we seem to have strong tendencies towards this) need is something to increase our sense of self-importance.
Point 3: Even if you somehow knew you dealt with ghosts and understand their nature and you knew that helping them coincided with your True Will, you don't yet have the magical tools to do anything about it. If you rush over the foundational work to learn to do evocation, invocation, skrying, and whatever else you might need to help them, then you'll only undermine your own efforts. With the foundation, you will unbalance yourself, burn yourself out, or do some other harm. So, since you can't do anything to help them now anyway, then let it go. Reevalute the situation when you do have the tools. But don't sacrifice yourself or lose sight of the Great Work for these sirens. You won't help anyone if you do.
Use the LBRP to ground you and provide a foundation for your work, not to unhinge you and push you away from the Great Work.
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@Malaclypse said
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Nothing of this of course proves that I couldn't simply have been contacted by an elemental anyway, but it acted just like the relative would've and gave testimony in the same helpful way I imagine accurate for it."This wouldn't be unusual, since elementals react to your unconscious or conscious ideas AND in this case, it would be dressed in the "clothes" of the deceased. They would have access to the expressions, personality and knowledge of the deceased as well as your memories and impressions of them. But, if the soul is missing, you're not really talking to the deceased, are you? A good book that explains this is Aleister Crowley & The Ouija Board.
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Yes, you're right sasha. I didn't think about the importance of the foundation for The Work.
And I'll check out that book, Redd. I've been meaning to buy it for some time anyway.
Lastly, one more question. This is my big fear. I may have asked this before so sorry if I repeat myself but I don't have the stamina to read the entire thread again to verify, but: any risk of something taking over my body while I'm away reaching for Samadhi in meditation, rendering me lost out there somewhere? I remembered only after I posted the above that this is the main reason for my interest in ghosts (but I mean of course anything, not just ghosts).
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" As your first task, you need to attain the knowledge and conversation of your holy guardian angel and determine your True Will".
Fast and pray?
Perhaps fasting and praying for a day might help before meditation.Wishing you the best.
chrys333