LBRP
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Two answers come to mind. One is that I don't know what practices you're doing, what the intent is, how much you understand about it all and what effect the work is really having on you, and that I'm therefore not the person who should answer that question.
The other answer is a general one: that in magick, we formulate an intent, and that intent shapes what follows. If we go into ritual (say, to call on a healing influence) with a sense of "Will there be demons lurking?" then we are confusing ourselves, and so compromising the outcome. We are carrying an element of fear around which fear-ful things will coalesce or crystallize. Intent - Will - is a determining factor, and for things to go right there may need to be many years of self-purification and balancing work necessary to ensure our rituals are effective. That's why we have Mystery Schools.
Edward
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In the Bible it says (if you care): "Fear of the Lord is the beginning of Wisdom." Also, everyone must die -- mortificatio -- surrender their will to that of the Divine Will. We all have to go sometime! Just this afternoon, thinking along these lines, I had a fantastic hour-long meditation. Malaclypse, I actually used your idea about talking to my HGA beforehand. Previously, I had feared the Kundalini Rising experience, but today I went into meditation with the intention of experiencing this, possibly not today, but sometime in the future and when the fear of the unknown crept in, I embraced it, and I embraced visions of death (like the monks who meditate amongst rotting corpses) and the fear and the threat just faded away. The thought of Kali crushing me underfoot brought a smile to my lips.
I charged up with the LBRP and MPR beforehand. This is officially the beginning of my personalized "abramelin operation"... hope it works.
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Okay, that cleared up a few details for me, so thanks again.
And I do have one specific thing I'd like help with determining: The spirits of dead people hanging around me, seeking me out for help or whatever. In your expertise what's true and not about that whole subject? Do spirits from dead people or something else become attracted to the energies that comes from magick work?
What I for one thing want is to be able to either help them on their way or simply make them stay away from me and be certain they do, or at least be certain they don't somehow bother me. (I have verified they do exist somehow and can inflict damage and information, by personal experience.) -
@Redd Fezz said
"The thought of Kali crushing me underfoot brought a smile to my lips.
I charged up with the LBRP and MPR beforehand. This is officially the beginning of my personalized "abramelin operation"... hope it works."
I wish you the best of luck with it! And that is perhaps a good advice for me too further on, but I think in my case I have more work getting over the impulsive chock reactions I get when I "sink through" certain levels of consciousness in my meditation and get makyo glimpses (it's like the feeling of going downhill in a rollercoaster, lasting about 1/10 of a second).
Btw, I had never heard of those monks before. Sounds extremely extreme imo. Gotta check it out.
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@Malaclypse said
"Okay, that cleared up a few details for me, so thanks again.
And I do have one specific thing I'd like help with determining: The spirits of dead people hanging around me, seeking me out for help or whatever. In your expertise what's true and not about that whole subject? Do spirits from dead people or something else become attracted to the energies that comes from magick work?
What I for one thing want is to be able to either help them on their way or simply make them stay away from me and be certain they do, or at least be certain they don't somehow bother me. (I have verified they do exist somehow and can inflict damage and information, by personal experience.)"From what I've learned, the only thing that hangs around after someone dies is their husk/shell/qlippoth which is not them but the sum of some knowledge they've accumulated. The fact that it is discarded upon death probably says a lot about its relative importance. When an elemental animates the Qlippoth, you have "ghosts" but these are not the actual dead people and the elementals will show you whatever you want to see as long as you're giving them attention.
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Malaclypse, I have only worked magic in a committed manner for about 2 years, though I studied it and messed around quite a bit prior to that. But I have done my work under the guidance of experienced people and in a well structured context. But keep my minimal experience in mind when evaluating my comments. And, please, anyone with more experience, correct anything I screw up.
Although I haven't personally worked with a large number of magicians and not personally known very many more, I have never heard of these sorts of affects from doing the LBRP. I get the impression, that one should not have to worry about such things, whether the bizarre effects or dealing with dead people, when only just starting off with the LBRP. Like Edward has said several times already and Fezz has reinforced based on his own experience, these sorts of things almost certainly come from within one's self.
I have paid attention to this thread all along, but have stayed out of it, worrying that I'd be speaking out of turn. But I keep thinking of a parrallel with something I have seen repeatedly amongst people starting out with meditation. They get swept up by every little sensation and wonder if it indicates something of great importance. Considering the goal of meditation, these things only serve to distract the person. If you want to experience weird things, then do something to create them. If you want to meditate and achieve samadhi, then you must ignore them and move on.
Likewise with magic, the LBRP should help to ground, balance, strengthen, etc. you. Everything else simply distracts. Also, if you have recently started with the LBRP, then you have only started waaaayyyyyy at the beginning of magic. Don't expect ground shaking results yet, at least not honest and objective ones. And banish any thoughts of your self-importance in the big scheme of the magical universe. Spirits of any sort are probably not going to come to you to harm you or to seek your help. You've only just started. They have better people to munch on right now. I suspect that your work might need to involve overcoming such ideas about yourslef and achieving a more balanced view of yourself.
Expect to work slowly and systematically, producing subtle effects - not massive fireworks. Build a solid foundation, creating a connection with LVX and balancing the elements within yourself. Spend maybe even a few years doing this. So definitely don't start invoking spirits like someone suggested. If you just started the LBRP, then invocation lies way down the line.
I think someone already said this, but reevaluate your interests in magic. You mentioned wanting to help dead people. I have no experience with such things, but based on my experience with magic, I'd say that, at this point, you can't. Focus on yourself. Magic requires a lifetime of work. You don't need to achieve everything now, next week, or next year.
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Dear Edward,
I don't know. I'll ask about how to invoke without banishing. Maybe, you have it - it is to build up by meditation and prayer, and study.
I'm going to send him the question, now.
In L.V.X.,
chrys333 -
First off, thanks so much for your help Redd and sasha!
Second, while meditating yesterday I got to a philosophy that helped me get over my fears (at least for the time being) thanks to some of the suggestions given in this thread:
Existence can be defined as nothing but vibration and life as resonance with certain frequencies. The frequency of God is that which is harmonic with all other frequencies taking the shapes of material (when I experience something as solid material it just means I'm vibrating in the same frequency and thusly attract it), so this is why we attract things by choice and there are no enemies but our own fears of them as such. The task of getting over any fear of the unknown is thereby neglicent since the only task is to choose to ignore everything but the most unknown and hidden shape which is the final turnstile for all beings, so there can't be any wrong address on the way to Samadhi. Hope this could help anyone who's even more ignorant than me on this subject.Third: It seems to me it could be important in some situations to contact the dead, because I've been helped by what other sources (some homeopaths) have affirmed was a deceased relative of mine. I had several explanatory dreams which helped me and saw its face in some kind of half sleep. From other sources there is a lot of talk about lots of people dying today needing help getting across into the light (the classical dilemma of ghosts) so if something could be done to facilitate their situation I'd like to be able to.
Nothing of this of course proves that I couldn't simply have been contacted by an elemental anyway, but it acted just like the relative would've and gave testimony in the same helpful way I imagine accurate for it.
So what do you think with this added? And please tell me to stop asking questions about dead people if you don't think that's suiting for this forum in which case I'm sorry to have brought it up. -
@Malaclypse said
"Nothing of this of course proves that I couldn't simply have been contacted by an elemental anyway, but it acted just like the relative would've and gave testimony in the same helpful way I imagine accurate for it.
So what do you think with this added?"I still recommend the same thing.
1st Point: Consider for what purpose Thelemites do magic. As your first task, you need to attain the knowledge and conversation of your holy guardian angel and determine your True Will. Helping out ghosts with magic will not help you do that. After succeeding in determining your True Will, you might conceivably find that it includes helping ghosts, but you don't know that yet. So any work towards that will serve as a distraction.
2nd Point: I have great skepticism about ghosts. I question that you even encountered an elemental. Perhaps you did encounter one of either, but perhaps you projected something from within yourself. How would the homeopath know you encountered a ghost? Why believe hir? Based on what does whoever say that deceased people increasingly have trouble crossing "over"? Analyze the evidence. Develop alternative interpretations. If you find multiple interepretations possible, then you can't accept that you encountered a ghost. But all of this concern about ghosts does serve to embue your magical work with a sense of great or even cosmic importance. That can create a trap, turning magic into something to boost your ego and reaffirm your present identity, rather than challenging that identity and creating transformation and growth. I don't even like Crowley's aeonic history for this reason. It places magicians and magic at center of everything. The last thing a bunch of ego-maniac magicians (we seem to have strong tendencies towards this) need is something to increase our sense of self-importance.
Point 3: Even if you somehow knew you dealt with ghosts and understand their nature and you knew that helping them coincided with your True Will, you don't yet have the magical tools to do anything about it. If you rush over the foundational work to learn to do evocation, invocation, skrying, and whatever else you might need to help them, then you'll only undermine your own efforts. With the foundation, you will unbalance yourself, burn yourself out, or do some other harm. So, since you can't do anything to help them now anyway, then let it go. Reevalute the situation when you do have the tools. But don't sacrifice yourself or lose sight of the Great Work for these sirens. You won't help anyone if you do.
Use the LBRP to ground you and provide a foundation for your work, not to unhinge you and push you away from the Great Work.
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@Malaclypse said
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Nothing of this of course proves that I couldn't simply have been contacted by an elemental anyway, but it acted just like the relative would've and gave testimony in the same helpful way I imagine accurate for it."This wouldn't be unusual, since elementals react to your unconscious or conscious ideas AND in this case, it would be dressed in the "clothes" of the deceased. They would have access to the expressions, personality and knowledge of the deceased as well as your memories and impressions of them. But, if the soul is missing, you're not really talking to the deceased, are you? A good book that explains this is Aleister Crowley & The Ouija Board.
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Yes, you're right sasha. I didn't think about the importance of the foundation for The Work.
And I'll check out that book, Redd. I've been meaning to buy it for some time anyway.
Lastly, one more question. This is my big fear. I may have asked this before so sorry if I repeat myself but I don't have the stamina to read the entire thread again to verify, but: any risk of something taking over my body while I'm away reaching for Samadhi in meditation, rendering me lost out there somewhere? I remembered only after I posted the above that this is the main reason for my interest in ghosts (but I mean of course anything, not just ghosts).
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" As your first task, you need to attain the knowledge and conversation of your holy guardian angel and determine your True Will".
Fast and pray?
Perhaps fasting and praying for a day might help before meditation.Wishing you the best.
chrys333 -
That I gotta try too. Thanks for reminding me!
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Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the Law.
I would like to ask something Mr Eshelman. Ypu said something about your trip to New Zealand and workings with Golden Dawn authorities there. Recently, I read in the papers based (I suppose) on Frank Salt teachings about LBRP about putting Archangel Yahu'EL (Metatron) "above" as a fifth Archangel. This is not mentioned that his name is added to "left ogf me is...etc, not that one should visuelise him. This is first time I heard about indesrting Metatron in LRP, and now I am currious is it correct and if it is how practically add this Archangel to the ritual? Any additional speach, visuelisation or something like this? Thank you in advance for possible answer, explanation or suggestion.
Love is the law, love under will.
B.
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I have been thinking a bit about the Qabalistic Cross lately. How come Geburah comes before Gedulah and not the opposite? Did Regardie possibly reason like I do when he used this transposition in his MPR book, that the order should be the same as in the Abramelin Ritual, that the first connection should be to the light and the last to the darkness?
Is this also the reason Christians do it the other way around?
My theories are that it has to do with Macro/Micro, that the magician forms the godhead in his body by transforming Geburah to Chesed or that a magician, in order to aspire to somewhere, has to build a strong foundation from where to push off from, which I've read on this forum somewhere in another context. Am I way off the mark? -
HPK,
If by "correct" you mean, is that part of any standard teaching - no, it isn't.
If you mean, is it symbolically correct - yes, IMHO Metatron is the appropriate archangel for the fifth Element. It takes that roll in a number of other rituals.
So my opinion (having never, to my memory, tried it this way) is that this is a worthy experiment.
PS - Somehow I missed this back in December, and just saw it now that another post was made on this thread. Sorry for taking so long to answer.
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Is there any reason why one particular way of visualising the archangels is better than another? I'm referring here to the weapons held by the angels. Some sources say that all four angels should be visualised holding a sword and balances. Other sources sources say that each angel should be holding their respective elemental weapon. Another source claims that Raphael holds a caduceus wand, Michael holds a sword, Gabriel a chalice, and Auriel a sheaf of wheat.
Is this all just a matter of personal preference or is their some deep symbolic meaning behind these seemingly small differences that makes one visualization method better than another.
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@Her said
"Is there any reason why one particular way of visualising the archangels is better than another? I'm referring here to the weapons held by the angels. Some sources say that all four angels should be visualised holding a sword and balances. Other sources sources say that each angel should be holding their respective elemental weapon. Another source claims that Raphael holds a caduceus wand, Michael holds a sword, Gabriel a chalice, and Auriel a sheaf of wheat."
The most general and applicable magical principle is that the archangels, who are Briatic, need to be provided a (Yetziratic) image consonant with their natures. Because the whole of their Briatic natures isn't containable within any single image, there is legitimate place for a variety of images - provided that each is, indeed, consonant with the archangel's nature.
Within the traditions which feed Temple of Thelema, certain variations of the elemental implements are advised, somewhat overlapping with what you have above. (The only problem I see with the list you have is that a Caduceus for Raphael links him with Mercury. While an angel named Raphael is the angel of Mercury, he isn't the archangel. Raphael is the name of the archangel of the Sun and Tiphereth. Sounds like maybe a bit of Mr. Gray in your reading?)
The other main magical principle that I think applies is the general differentiation between soitary and group work. In group work there is a need for everyone to be using substantially the same images (or at least images that concur in whatever are the key points) so that they don't struggle with each other and undo the work. Visualization is a creative act, and all of those in an ongoing group should create in the same way. This particular consideration doesn't apply in solitary work.
"Is this all just a matter of personal preference"
No. That implies you could have it any way you want it. In fact, it has to be authentic to the actual nature of the archangel.
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@Jim Eshelman said
"(The only problem I see with the list you have is that a Caduceus for Raphael links him with Mercury. While an angel named Raphael is the angel of Mercury, he isn't the archangel. Raphael is the name of the archangel of the Sun and Tiphereth. Sounds like maybe a bit of Mr. Gray in your reading?)"
Actually I've never read any of William Gray's books.
I believe the Raphael + Caduceus thing comes from Israel Regardie. His modern day heirs, the Cicero's, use it in all their books and claim that Regardie stressed to them the importance of not confusing the Sephirotic, Planetary, and Elemental hierarchies.
As I understand it Regardies/Cicero's use of Raphael+caduceus is meant to emphasise the Sephirotic aspect. They point out that Rapael is both a healer and teacher of the Hermetic arts as well as a mediator. All these things are associated with the sephira Tiphareth.This confuses me because I would have thought that the elemental aspect would be more appropriate. That's why I think the symbolism of the Air dagger is more fitting in the context of the pentagram ritual.
On a similar note, I've seen an Archangelic variation that uses the symbolism of the Kerubs. Michael with a Lions head, Auriel with Bulls head etc., etc. I'm not sure how valid this is though. I thought the Kerubs were lower down the hierarchy than the Archangels.