true love
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93,
"By their very nature, a dove will always give you this. If I am the dove to their serpent, I will be the one to give."
Would you mind elaborating on this? I am clueless to significance of the sexual application of this principal, and I was also under the impression that the serpent love is more material based i:e "I just want to do this person for my own sexual gratification" as opposed to the dove, which I felt was more in line with "Well, I love this person and I will allow them to be themselves even if I do not agree with them all of the time"...then again, this is a reflection of my limited, juvenille and very trivial perception of love
I am very eager to learn more about this serpent and dove business 
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There are, of course, different way to understand the dove-serpent symbolism; but the initiated interpretation Soror Meral gave me is exactly the opposite of my initial instinct.
My instinct was to regard the dove as spiritualized and the serpent as carnal. She taught me that the dove is that which descends - Hadit dropping down his head - and the serpent is that which ascends - the rising, spiritualized kundalini, Hadit lifting up his head to Nuit.
Again, I admit that different people can look at this differently, just thought I'd pass along the teaching.
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93,
Thanks for that interp Jim. It seems a similar to what you were saying El, but now I have another question (and I apologize if I am being pesty or even beating a dead horse) but now it seems that the roles have been reversed. If I'm permitted to ask (or, if I am permitted to recieve an answer rather) does the dove have something to do with Nuit?93 93/93
Shariyf -
"" She taught me that the dove is that which descends - Hadit dropping down his head - and the serpent is that which ascends - the rising, spiritualized kundalini, Hadit lifting up his head to Nuit.""
Thanks, Jim. Very beautiful image. Love.
In L.V.X.,
chrys333 -
@Ra-Imhotep said
"does the dove have something to do with Nuit?"
The dove is the traditional bird of Venus/Aprhrodite, and the descending dove is a Christian symbol of the Holy Ghost - which often (but not universally) is regarded as feminine (probably from a Christian residuum of the Jewish doctrine of the Shekinah).
But Crowley was equally taken with Catullus' poetic equation of the dove with the phallus.
If we take the simple up-down sequence - Hadit "lifting up his head" unto Nuit in the raising of kundalini, and "dropping down his head and shooting forth venom" in physical sexual orgasm, then the dove, as "that which drops down," becomes the sybol not of the rarified spiritual aspect but, rather, of the most physical expression. And, in fact, in the Vision & the Voice and the Gnostic Mass, the moment of orgasm is singled by the onomatapoetic sound of a dove, hriliu.
A dove arguably represents sexual fertility in other contexts that often are interpreted more astractly but, in fact, seem to be quite physical and actual. One is the moment of Jesus' conception within Mary. Another is the symbol of new life and promise of prosperity of the dove returning to Noah with a sign of new growth.
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Thanks a lot Jim. I felt something there but just couldn't get a handle on it.
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@Jim Eshelman said
"She taught me that the dove is that which descends - Hadit dropping down his head - and the serpent is that which ascends - the rising, spiritualized kundalini, Hadit lifting up his head to Nuit."
Let me add my voice of thanks to the chorus for this, too. A neat insight. In some ways, does this reflect in the difference in symbolism between the OTO and the TOT lamens? (A scarab is not a snake, of course, but it's still ascending...)
It also brings to mind that infamous chapter of The Book of Lies...
"This is the Holy Hexagram.
Plunge from the height, O God, and interlock with Man!
Plunge from the height, O Man, and interlock with Beast!
The Red Triangle is the descending tongue of grace; the Blue Triangle is the ascending tongue of prayer"It's a chicken-and-the-egg problem, isn't it? (no pun intended!) You need both!
Finally, T. S. Eliot's Four Quartets is just chock full of descending doves, tongues of flame, tons of sentiment-free Agape... and the darn thing ends with
" And all shall be well and
All manner of things shall be well
When the tongues of flame are infolded
Into the crowned knot of fire
And the fire and the rose are one."I apologize if I've strayed too far from the main topic of this thread. I hope it's interesting to see how these ideas crop up elsewhere.
Steve
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@Jim Eshelman said
"What consequences did this have (if any) on the long-term progress of your relationship(s)?"
I was thinking the same
About 10 yrs ago one of my fellow Travelers said the same to his lover, and she demanded that when they have sex, he must think only of her, otherwise they don't do it
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no i have had differnet experiences when it comes to your friends lover, but with thelemites its different, i dont know if so was a thelemite. though i do not think any real attainment with ones HGA could come through having sex with a human. i only see it as training your mind to see your HGA more and more everyday, and to see it as more apart of your life.
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I'm left wondering if a reciprocal relationship might "really" be going on in some of these cases. Person A sees or interprets person B as an embodiment of their HGA. Person B might then get a lot out of simultaneously interpreting person A as an embodiment of their own HGA?
I'm reminded of Jack Parsons and Marjorie Cameron, who both came to attain in their own ways and own times, but whose connection seemed to be a major spark for the work of both. Is this a kind of ideal to work toward?
(By the way, I noticed that noone responded to my earlier message about TOT/OTO lamens, ch. 69 of the Book of Lies, etc. It's hard to know if either everyone is simply too busy - this being Thelemic holy season and all - or if I might have stepped into territory that is more properly discussed only within the obligated bounds of fraternity. If the latter, I apologize! As an uninitiated participant here, it's somewhat like walking through a maze with a blindfold on: one only knows about the walls after one has bumped up against one!)
Steve
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93,
I was just thinking about another person embodying our own HGA, and it kinda seems a little unlikely that another human being can even come close to embodying our own HGA. Perhaps, on some level in which there is two-way communication between an individual and their HGA, there is a an agreement established between the two. The purpose of this agreement is to express the conditions, premises, events, experiences etc necessary for one to grow, to achieve equilibration within oneself (if that is one's will ofcourse). So we meet the people (person) we need to meet in order to go through those experiences that are geared toward facilitating our growth if we remain open to the guidance our HGA offer's us. Our lover becomes a reflection of the conscious and unconscious parts of ourselves that we are seeking to realize within us, while remaining a seperate entity of their own individuality. Just a thought. I could be very wrong.
93 93/93
Shariyf