Worship me with wine and strange drugs
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"I saw a film today, oh boy..."
Actually, it was over the weekend. It was "The Wall." That movie is way better than I remembered it! (and quite horrible, too, by the way!)
I used to do psychedelics quite a lot. Now, I have been alive more years than I have done psychedelics, thankfully. (Whew! That took a while! Just kidding: I only did psychedelics for about 6 years heavily.)
Am wondering... it's hard to figure out. Is my experience with entities, visualization, etc. totally warped and weird compared to people who never did this stuff?
My guess is that LSD is way more dangerous than magick could ever be. Yes, I recognize magick is dangerous, but I have friends in the nuthouse and my experiences with entities so far has been nice compared to the bad trips I've had. I almost feel like the bad trips helped me find that center of "you can't get me"-ness that I can always use.
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I didn't begin magic until after I'd already done LSD, so I can't do a before and after comparison. However, I can't see that my past use of LSD has affected my magic at all. I don't have anything unusually weird happen compared to the magicians I know who haven't done it. Then again, most of the magicians I know have done it at least once. What does that tell us?
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I am pretty much a "straight" guy now. I'm quite sure I gave up drinking, which was my last vice. I read a book that gave me a pleasant reality shift which basically removed my desire to drink. The same author wrote a book that enabled me to quit smoking about 3 years ago, so I have every reason to believe I've been deprogrammed with regards to alcohol. (In the past, I've done tons of drugs.)
What's interesting is that somehow, in the process, the author tends to hit a lot of subjects all centered around seeing things as they really are, rather than as we've been conditioned to believe or as we'd like to believe. I didn't expect this at all, but it seems that "seeing through the alcohol trap," as the author puts it, and having already seen through the "smoking trap," a lot of little things about thought processes, personality and emotions are revealed. The simple magic of the Seven Steps of BOTA or Creative Visualization or "The Secret" seems a lot more obvious to me now that I don't have conflicting, self-sabotaging loops in my head all the time.
Going back to the earliest stages when you learned to smoke or to drink explains a lot about your self and how the learned personality functions in relation to the inner being. Who is that said "society is public enemy #1?" Or was it "family is public enemy #1?" I think it was Crowley. There are many reasons for that, but basically what this means is that other people inhibit and brainwash each other. This also applies in the case of substance abuse. After prohibition, the alcohol and tobacco industries funded Hollywood and, therefore, all the movie stars smoked incessantly on the screen. Dean Martin and Frank Sinatra were walking billboards for substance abuse. Frank Sinatra takes a sip of a clear liquid on stage and spits it out, "Ugh! That's water!!" So, everyone learns that drinking and smoking is good (and funny!). Then, the hippies and Timothy Leary... A funny thing about prohibition is that it creates addicts. Addicts are often fiercely independent, strong-willed people who have become powerless to silly little things like some old dried out weed rolled up in paper or a glass of poison simply because they are addictive substances.
So when I was growing up in a restrictive household much like Crowley's own upbringing, I of course wanted to rebel and experiment. Most of all, I wanted my freedom. I wanted to be an adult and be taken seriously. Well, funny, how that works-- here are some things adults do: they get frustrated and say, "I need a cigarette!" They come home from a hard day they can't deal with and say, "I need a drink!" But, kids don't see this as dependency. They see it as the sort of responsible things adults do. It seems tough and grown up to be able to withstand throat-burning smoke and whiskey while exercising your freedom of choice. I've heard 17 year old kids say,"I need a drink!" and it's the most hilariously sad thing I've ever heard in my life. How would they know if they need a drink? How many drinks have they had in their life so far? The fact that they're already thinking this way almost guarantees they will have problems in a few years with alcohol.
This sort of societal brainwashing lead me to years of debauchery that could've been much better spent at achieving some goals rather than creating dependency issues which threatened my health and eventually needed to be overcome... All because I "learned" from society how to become habituated to addictive substances. Why don't I take responsibility for my actions, you ask? I do, but I also recognize the fact that like most impressionable kids, I was ignorant and naïve and thought I knew it all. That's part of the genius of smoking and drinking, too: at first, they taste so bad you think, "well, I could never get addicted to this." And, in your limited experience, you think you know. If you thought you would become an addict, you probably wouldn't start or continue. But, it's a slow process and there's a lot of false information about addiction. Plus, everybody else is doing it!
The funny thing is that childhood is probably the most stressful time of your life in many ways, but you make it through mostly without too many dependency issues since you're not legally allowed to purchase these substances. (Not including pot, etc., of course-- and we know there are plenty of teens addicted to these substances, too). What's bizarre is that right at the time when you could really start to take on the world, most people learn to become dependent on drugs for social reasons. The truth is that you would function much better in every aspect without ingesting poison. That's quite obvious. But, there is the illusion that you're getting something from it and filling some void within yourself. Yet, all it does is create a larger void. It's a gradual slope downward. Everyone who uses drugs is on the same slope, just at different stages of the slide.
There are no such things as "addictive genes" or "addictive personalities." These two ideas don't withstand scientific analysis. AA is a crock of cult manure. The most successful treatments agree on these points: alcoholism is not a disease and it has nothing to do with your genes. In fact, thinking this way only reinforces the brainwashing and enables the addict by creating more excuses. Just compare Passages' success rate with AA. Huge difference. AA leads to a life of misery and "support groups" and being "one drink away from disaster" for the rest of your life while Passages teaches people quickly and simply how to cure their addictions. Most patients who are cured at Passages never look back. I have the same feeling after reading a book.
People can't believe I quit smoking overnight with ease. My smoker friends resented me at the time and I could tell that they secretly wanted me to fail. Regardless of how many times they've told me they are "going to quit," not a single one will read the book that enabled me to quit. So, you can see there is some obstinate brainwashing going on here. Addicts often become addicts because they are so independent. Isn't that a kick in the pants? If confronted with their problems and excuses, an addict will often drink another beer or smoke another cigarette just to show you who's the boss of them! (They think they are demonstrating their own freedom of choice, but they're really just showing you who's the boss, alright: the drug.)
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So, why did I bring this up here? Because of the "drink wine and take strange drugs" line. Because of Crowley's encouragement in this area. And because Diary of A Drug Fiend paints sort of a rose-colored view of the "willpower method." If you use the willpower method to overcome addictions, you are never really going to succeed. Like I said, addicts are very strong-willed people... and they can't quit! Or, they might quit and start again 5, 10 or 20 years or more later. The reason is that it is because the addiction is not based on willpower or lack of willpower. It is based on a perceived desire.
Once a person realized he actually, in all truth, does not desire a substance, then it is incredibly easy to stop imbibing the substance. I can't speak for heroin dependency, but supposedly cigarettes are more addictive than heroin and I quit overnight. Passages also successfully treats heroin addicts regularly. I'm not sure about Crowley's asthma situation-- it seems like he genuinely needed heroin for physical reasons at the time of his death, although I'm not sure why...
But, I wonder now if the encouragement to take wine and strange drugs is not so much an endorsement of drugs as simply an endorsement of "knowledge painfully acquired." As I said above, being able to see through these traps of addiction has unexpectedly provided me with startling insights into personality and point of view. I compare it to dissolving obscurations because that's exactly what it is. I had these different ideas that were filtering reality in unpleasant ways and here I come to find out they were just crap getting in between my experience of reality. Just misperceptions, delusions, obscurations, etc.
I think a little drugs are probably good to blow away your previous delusions, but the drugs themselves cause their own delusions. So, I suppose I would agree that a little drugs can be a good thing, but unfortunately most people don't know what they're getting into.
Just felt compelled to share that.
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@Redd Fezz said
"So, why did I bring this up here? Because of the "drink wine and take strange drugs" line. Because of Crowley's encouragement in this area. And because Diary of A Drug Fiend paints sort of a rose-colored view of the "willpower method." If you use the willpower method to overcome addictions, you are never really going to succeed. "
I'm in the middle of reading Sutin's biography of Crowley ("Do What Thou Wilt") and it contains a lot of revealing detail about the apparent cognitive dissonance that AC had between the above verse from Liber Legis and his own problems. Liber TzBA vel Nike (The Fountain of Hyacinth) is also interesting reading during another of his attempts to quit. He stuck to the "willpower method" grandly...
"I must be as capable of using them [drugs], and as confident in my capacity, as an engineer is of handling high explosives..."
I'm sure this has been thrashed out on other threads, but this idea of addiction as a "moral weakness" that could be overcome with willpower was prevalent at the start of the 20th century. They simply didn't have modern knowledge about the physical effects of addiction.
Of course, there are other ways of viewing this verse than the literal. Doesn't Liber LXV (Ch. I, v. 64) say
"Intoxicate the inmost, O my lover, not the outermost."
Kenneth Grant believed that the "strangeness" implies equal parts physical and "occult" essences (i.e., specially charged fluids...)
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That's interesting, Steven. I'm going to have to get my hands on these biographies one day. They're all out of print when I go to find them, so I'll have to keep my eyes peeled and ears open...
"Of course, there are other ways of viewing this verse than the literal. Doesn't Liber LXV (Ch. I, v. 64) say
Quote:
Intoxicate the inmost, O my lover, not the outermost.Kenneth Grant believed that the "strangeness" implies equal parts physical and "occult" essences (i.e., specially charged fluids...)"
Hmm... I don't know. Anything's possible, I suppose. It's amazing how complex this little book is, eh?
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Hello, good people (after some time away from occultism)!
Couldn't you please tell us the name of the book too, Redd?
I've also done that "simply quit" method once and it worked great. There was no answer to the question "do I really need this", so I took that as a no and quit. And yes, I agree it was quite easy even though I had used nicotine for about a decade until then. I have since started again, though, but that was due to cannabis use, and it's just heaven to smoke a splif for me, so now I have a reason not to quit.
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That verse delineates various magickal formulae for worshipping/invoking Hadit.
The drugs I would recommend for possible magickal workings are cannabis and tryptamines (mushrooms or LSD).
I was supremely successfull some years ago by doing 2 tabs of LSD and playing music with some other people for what seemed about 4 hours straight. It wasn't an intentional Working, but by the force of truth it ended with me and another attaining ultimate Samadhi of our universe to Nothingness.
It is the ultimate True Will of everyone to achieve this union, and what I believe is referred to as the "Supreme Ritual" in Liber Legis.
Anway, first thing I recall after it happening is descending a black shaft and laughing which broke the spell by taking individual pleasure in what had occured. Next 2 etheric entities of The Stellar Wisdom appeared visibly in front of me, the black one on my left and the white one on my right, each its other's opposite. They circled around the room then vanished. My friend said he saw them as well, but later said he only saw the black one.
So my belief is the energy given to the magus by some of these substances is useful magickally. The tryptamine high in particular I feel is conducive to healthy eating, ritual and meditation.
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LSD, the wall and magick all may invoulve existential dispare as can study of philosophy.
However I thing magick holds the key to transcend that abyss, where as without it the best one can do is distract one self from it and build up tolerance or a "wall" against it.
The wall hints at facing this abyss with the wall removed, but the result was madness and suicide.
The Wall is rated number one in my list or films that depress the viewer into a coma.
Of course the final episode of six feet under in extremely depressing as well, but its more of a grief/sadness, not the facing ones True self and inner demons trip of the wall.
Of course LSD con set one on this trip more than anything.
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I have had some interesting experiences mixing drugs with The Wall, both the movie and the album...(such as being attacked by zombies- those who have built a wall too strong?).
Drugs, like anything, can be a useful tool. It is just that one has to be all the more careful not to become addicted.
Magick, and especially mysticism is about alerted states. And many of the mental tools I have developed to deal with a bad trip have been helpful in my studies. Allowing me to keep my head when something frightening or unexpected happens.
Not that I would suggest mixing drugs and ritual. Then you are just playing with fire, young Prometheus
The line itself, I do not see necessarily as a call to use drugs. It is more a note about the sobriety which can come with intoxication. The revelation of the you which hides behind the wall you have created between yourself and society.
Furthermore, I see it as a call to live life to the fullest. Although you do not have to take drugs, do not be afraid to just because others say it is bad for you. Partake and make a judgment for yourself. With a tie in to "change = stability" where you are Hadit, He who Goes. Taking "strange drugs" because you have already done all that is considered "normal." The constant strive for new and mind altering experieinces, if you Will.
Just remember to be their Master and not their Slave
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@Uni_Verse said
"Not that I would suggest mixing drugs and ritual. Then you are just playing with fire, young Prometheus
"Prometheus didn't play with fire. He knew what he was doing
Icarus might be a better analogy.
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That is why I said young Prometheus!
In this case, I was looking at the story of Prometheus ( or using it) as an analogy to not letting the fire come from elsewhere. Let it come from your heart, or like Prometheus, you will find yourself constantly pushing the stone up the hill, but getting nowhere (cycle of drug abuse).
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@Uni_Verse said
"...or like Prometheus, you will find yourself constantly pushing the stone up the hill, but getting nowhere (cycle of drug abuse)."
Yeah, your point is well made.
That's not the Prometheus myth, though. That was Sisyphus.
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I always wanted to know, what could truly happen if you did a ritual using psychedelics
I never try it.. but just always wonder
Heres a funny thing..
while doing a ritual I used to smoke marijuana, before i got into the heaviness of magick, and realized how important is to keep sober to improve ones life.
But i would do the LBRP while I was high as a kite off weed and I would sober up. as If i never did a drug at all, I dont know but I wanted to comment that some rituals will sober you up.
I never tried other drugs doing the LBRP, but maybe my theories are incorrect.
King Solomon
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@Kingsolomon said
"I always wanted to know, what could truly happen if you did a ritual using psychedelics"
I always bring ritual to my psychedelics.
I never bring psychedelics to my ritual.
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LBRP on LSD had the opposite effect of its intended purpose. The casting out of pentagrams at each corner took part of me with it. The result was my "head space" for lack of a better term was expanded to the horizons rather that focused on the limits of the circle. Both the physical horizon and the "elemental" limits. My ritual space was thus too big to protect, and I quickly reeled myself back in.
The microcosm should normally only expand to the wall of the circle. The pentagrams push back influences near the circle, while the minds focus pull in. LSD tends to work like a bridge rectifier in electric circuits, in makes sure all current flow is one way, out of the mind. Thus In is out and out is out, and thus the hallucinations.
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Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the Law.
Just to act as a control here, I've never taken LSD (the one exception to the repertoire), and usually only see the faintest hints of light. But, there are probably a host of factors here, perhaps genetic, as there are certainly genetic factors involved in drug addiction.
However, it seems like any operation involving a hallucinogen and a separate entity would need incredibly strict verifications! I suppose you could assume that everything seen on LSD is in some sense true, but specificity is implied in doing a particular ritual, so it seems that it should also apply to the result. Correct?
On a related note, you just can't beat the 2003 Chateux Sargent Bordeaux. It's subtle.
Love is the law, love under will.
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I was a 4 pack a day smoker,i used the will power method to quit and never looked back it works. I,am in no way better than anybody believe me . I, have been studying Thelema for many years now,,privately.When i joined the O.T.O. My expectations were rather high.[my fault]. But i,ve never seen such a lack of disciplin.Everybody drinks constantly even when there teaching classes on self disciplin,, i don,t get it.I think more should be done in this area,, i wish there was more focus on developing the Mind and Body,less drinking more nutrition for the body[a lot of us are slightly overweight
] Maybe even going as far as creating a Thelemic excercise prgram. Both physically and mentally developing ourselves,, is ,nt this what Thelemic Magick is all about,, Bettering ourselves,, Becoming Thelemic Magicians.I hope i,m not out of line. 93/93 93.. Frater Nocturnis. -
@Jim Eshelman said
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@Kingsolomon said
"I always wanted to know, what could truly happen if you did a ritual using psychedelics"I always bring ritual to my psychedelics.
I never bring psychedelics to my ritual."
this is the best thing i think anyone has added to the conversation thus far...
to the person who said they had the opposite affect intended by the pentagram ritual, i think that might have something to do with something about you, that goes beyond the external and manifest from whatever you have going on internally, so to speak. i have had wonderful results in doing this before a trip.
i take many psychedelic substances on a myriad of what i feel are meaningful occasions and as a seasoned tripper for many years now have learned the value of finding the right place and time... i'm a musician and the total ecstacy and flow of mind that comes from being able to mix the two is something that keeps me coming back. for me everything i do always comes back to my art, and all the philosophy involved even with every aspect of any topic discussed in places like this, are related and thrown back into my art, and that includes magick.
there are periods where for a whole month or more me and my band will trip on the weekends and converge in our practice space to manifest our minds in what we've come to see as a microcosm of creation. sometimes we use no drugs at all and are incorperating other types of phiosophy into what we do, and thats where magick comes in. this is how i try to find and manifest my will. for me being made in the image of god is about uniting those devided parts of my mind into a whole where the product is creation... i've sort of set up my whole practice around this.
i've had some pretty humbling and seemingly enlightened expirences from a wide relationship to an array of drugs, as well as battled with the worst of substance abuses. everything i've expirienced from intense heroin addiction, to the quiting of smoking cigarettes (which i too, did over night), has given me a piece of the puzzle and a foundation of expirience on which to build and find myself.
to speak about the drug comment... i think that nothing that happens is not meant to happen, and while alot of horrible consequences can come from elicit drug use (and abuse), you deffinately learn alot about yourself and how things work along the way... if you cant change and it does kill you, i belive you will have the oppurtunity to return until you can not make those mistakes ...but if your someone who for some reason or another have already figured out that you've been given infinite oppurtunities to correct those parts of you, and that the longer you spend doing it, the more you are hurting the overall progress of everything, than that expirience has served as a valuable life lesson hopefully having pointed you on the right path... whether you are overcoming addiction, or just trying to break out of an endless cycle of reincarnation.
a similiar example would be someone who goes to the mall to off a bunch of people... he spends the rest of his life in jail, and eventually finds jesus, winning his salvation... sure many people have died and the lives of those involved are absolutely ruined, but the criminal will have been able to face god with a clear consciouse and so that was gods plan all along right? everyone would have died anyway and we feel it's so awful because of the conditioning of our minds thats taken place to sensitize us to certain subjects we see on the news or other media... in reality everyone involved will have been given the oppurtunity to live up to whatever devine principal guided their fate and they will be judged accordingly.
i'm dont sympathise or agree with people becoming disgruntled and shooting other people, but the whole sense of apathy of knowing that the universe is a force working on impersonal principles, and not becoming wrapped up in the result of any one event, is what is implied by the line "Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the Law"
for me it's like the hindu principle of dharma... what you expirience in your lifetime is the result of what you were going to or already have expirienced (karma) and so the only way to break out of that cycle, is to do what it takes to expirience and face it... whether you were or are going to be a drug addict, a murderer, or a magician.