Joining the A.'.A.'.
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Clear to me and clearly expressible in linguistic symbols does not mean the same thing.
You say that 5=6 is not the same in one order as in another.
But is it not an expression of the formula of the rosy cross, which is alchemical union of opposites. Is it not marked by the distillation of the higher or Inner Self, or Knowledge and Conversation of the HGA, which means the same thing.
Are you saying that different orders offer different HGAs?
Or shall we continue with my assertion that attainment of the HGA is the same regardless of the circumstances which bring it about, and it matters not if you call this 5=6 or uniting with ones Atman.
Crowley was given 9th degree in the OTO, without having earned the degree in succession from the order.
When Crowley and Jones formulated the A.'.A.'. Neither of them started as a neophyte and worked his way through the system. Crowley earned his outer order titles in the golden dawn, his 5=6 from persuading Mathers, and he Conferred the titles of adeptus major through Ipssissimus upon himself.
I might add that he attained these Grades, not by word with the A.'.A.'. system directly, but via his works with Aiwass and his efforts to bring about the new aeon. In fact he formulated the A.'.A.'. as part of his attainments, it was not via membership within it.
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@Froclown said
"You say that 5=6 is not the same in one order as in another.
But is it not an expression of the formula of the rosy cross, which is alchemical union of opposites. Is it not marked by the distillation of the higher or Inner Self, or Knowledge and Conversation of the HGA, which means the same thing.
Are you saying that different orders offer different HGAs? "
No, that's silly. You missed the point entirely and I'm going to stop repeating myself.
"Or shall we continue with my assertion that attainment of the HGA is the same regardless of the circumstances which bring it about, and it matters not if you call this 5=6 or uniting with ones Atman."
The authentic attainment of the K&C of the HGA is, of course, authentic. But, again, you're missing the point.
"Crowley was given 9th degree in the OTO, without having earned the degree in succession from the order. "
That has nothing to do with attainment. That's an administrative decision in a para-Masonic organization. This isn't me being snotty: AC made clear statements in various O.T.O. documents, including source documents in The Blue Equinox, that attainment is not the basis of O.T.O. degree advancement.
But, in a sense, you've made my point - Different organization, different rules, different meaning. Though I am a past Deputy Grand Master General of O.T.O. who was rightly vested with the Ninth Degree within that organization, I subsequently resigned my membership and therefore have no right to call myself a Ninth Degree (or, for that matter, any degree) of O.T.O. One has to be a member to have a category of membership.
"When Crowley and Jones formulated the A.'.A.'. Neither of them started as a neophyte and worked his way through the system. Crowley earned his outer order titles in the golden dawn, his 5=6 from persuading Mathers, and he Conferred the titles of adeptus major through Ipssissimus upon himself. "
Actually, A.C. had his grades through 7=4 confirmed by Jones, who was entitled to do so. And you're still missing the point.
`
You still seem seem to think that, being a Girl Scout, you can claim to be Boy Scout, and can redefne what the rules of the Boy Scouts should be based on the rules of the Girl Scouts. -
I make no claims other that membership in that "third order" as you like to call it.
I refered to it as the sanctuary or TRUE Church also the A.'.A.'.
It is also true that members of this order have the right to start their own external organizations which express the inner truth in any way they find practical.
Thus it matters not if my Order is based on Golden dawn, free masonry, or Macrome, so long as these external teachings convey the Inner Truth, they are manifestations of the inner order the A.'.A.'.
Seeing as I plan the order to not only administer the external rites, but also to train adepts and prepare them for crossing the abyss, there by ascending to the third order the True inner A.'.A.'. and I plan to use the basic outline and official rituals of the external order that also went by the name of A.'.A.'. I see no reason why I should not call my order A.'.A.'.
Which of the several orders that go by that name do you propose has the right to claim itself by that title? The one the traces itself back to Jane Wolfe perhaps? I see no reason why these orders have any more or less right to claim connection to the inner mysteries than the one I propose.
If my order is not ligit, then my temple will be found unsatisfactory the light will not come te dwell there in, my operation as an MT will have failed. "Success is thy proof"
Or to invoke the ghost Shakespeare, "A rose by any other name"
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Also if a girl scout met all the requirements to earn a boy scout merit badge, I would say that despite not being allowed to join the boy scouts, she has every right to wear that merit badge on her girl scout uniform.
If a girl scout has completed all the requirements of Eagle scout and wants to start her own co-ed scouts, and run it along the same lines as the boy scouts, she is so entitled. Once this Co-ed troop becomes established the boy scouts may even accept the troop for official membership.
Her scout troop need not be directly affiliated as a member of the "Boy Scouts of America" to be a legitimate franchise.
So lets just say I am opening up a Franchise A.'.A.'. With aspirations of becoming Corporate.
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@Froclown said
"Also if a girl scout met all the requirements to earn a boy scout merit badge, I would say that despite not being allowed to join the boy scouts, she has every right to wear that merit badge on her girl scout uniform. "
Yeah, but you just made up that rule. Obviously she doesn't really have the right.
"If a girl scout has completed all the requirements of Eagle scout and wants to start her own co-ed scouts, and run it along the same lines as the boy scouts, she is so entitled."
Sure. She can always start something new. But she can't call it by the name of the other organization she's somewhat copying.
"Her scout troop need not be directly affiliated as a member of the "Boy Scouts of America" to be a legitimate franchise. "
Similarly, she isn't entitled to use their name.
"So lets just say I am opening up a Franchise A.'.A.'. With aspirations of becoming Corporate."
As long as you don't call it A.'.A.'. (or by the name of some other currently existing organzation), I have no problem with whatever you want to create or claim.
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But their is no official A.'.A.'. as it were, as the name confers only a connection to the inner mysteries.
It is also a method, structure, set of water marks, etc.
I plan to use those, but also adapt those for the times and the individual, update the reading lists, including Lovecraft, Philip K. Dick and Peter Carroll.
As well as the study of the church of the subgenius, in connection with the Soldier and the Hunchback and Onion peelings from the book of lies.
It may even be the case that I would suggest online courses from maybe logic or other such, just as mastery of an art is required for Philosophus and a science for Practicus.
Are Computer science, biotechnology, and Quantum mechanics, not suitable technical sciences for the Practicus, just because Crowley didn't know of them? Must we stick to the letter?
Which OTO do you propose is authentic? Does winning a court case make you authentic? I should think not, since the laws of men are made up, and do not apply to nature let alone to TRUTH and authenticity.
So who is to say my A.'.A.'. is not the Authentic one?
On what grounds shall we judge Authenticity, save by creating an open space in which Authenticity may come to dwell.
It is my intent to create a clearing, a Ritual space, in which Authentic A.'.A.'. Being may come to dwell. I could call it something else, I could make a whole different order, with different rules, goals, structures, etc.
but "Is a God to live in a dog?"
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@Froclown said
"Which OTO do you propose is authentic? Does winning a court case make you authentic? I should think not, since the laws of men are made up, and do not apply to nature let alone to TRUTH and authenticity. "
But O.T.O. isn't a force of nature, it's a specific organization. It's property. So yes, by definition, legal standing can define that.
"So who is to say my A.'.A.'. is not the Authentic one?"
If you are following the patterns and instructions laid out in Liber XIII, Liber 185, and One Star in Sight and can demonstrate a documented successorship from one or both of the two founders, then I would refrain from commentting one way or the other per our noninterference policy.
But I don't feel bound to extend that noninterference policy to self-evident and even self-admitted malarky.
"It is my intent to create a clearing, a Ritual space, in which Authentic A.'.A.'. Being may come to dwell. I could call it something else, I could make a whole different order, with different rules, goals, structures, etc. "
Please call it something else. Nobody would then have a basis to argue with you. (Of course, that probably would spoil your fun.)
"but "Is a God to live in a dog?""
I've been refraining from asking you the same question.
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93!
Thanks again Jim, for more clarification on the difference between attainment and being accredited with a grade in a particular system and the fact that there are different lineages, all from the same sources ultimately and I don't mean just Crowley but more the ancient Eye of Horus mystery schools of Egypt hence the use of Egyptian names/archetypes, which have different criteria in wisdom and attainment. None of this discredits nor should discourage our natural individual paths towards our Work just it does not give us the right to claim any such degree officially within an order out of respect for a possible ignorance of that system which I for one acknowledge.I can not speak for others but it seems there are many like me here that are relieved to find familiarity with this flux of information coming out of theories on indigo adults which I would love to know the official A.'.A.'. take on... I feel I have been born into a system of initiation and aware of my HGA and a spiritual plan of action since early childhood, this has included a sense of destiny with this organization that is to be found or it will find us(oops- I mean me) that almost seems mythological at this point thanks to the split in the caliphate after the death of Grady McMurty, as well as the writings of RAW... Point of clarification- I have been in correspondence with who goes by just the initials AA opposed to A.'.A.'. in attempts to eliminate the confusion such as the claims presented here. Truly there is One Order of Melchizedek but various organizations filtering into that bright light of Secret Chiefs who are not present incarnate. But I'm going tangent...
The frustration or fear of those of us who have been wondering while working a spiritual path since birth is to not be recognized as "special" and to not be presented a form of "special ed" like the programs we were pulled out of class for in elementary school and be put back into the normal left brain curriculum such as minervals of the OTO which correlates to Malkuth when we know, wait I know that I've existed out of Tipareth for quite some time and have been attempting to leap like the fool into the abyss and can't interpret the results successfully surrounded by instructors who insist I am starting in Malkuth in order to follow the system of instructions in uniform to alleviate any loss of experience in preparation to assist future students who are in fact starting at ground zero. This presents doubt in our intuition first off, and we(sh*t I) are a rebellious and evolved breed of humans who by means of neccessity are well trained to not accept limitations by nature but to know, in secret, we are to challenge all systems of order because of the systems in place, more universally such as economically or politically, are failing and it is our work to abolish them!
This is the conflict you are getting from all these renegade initiates. We trust No One but ourself and are self conflicted by the need for acknowledgement and the knowledge we are only a part of the movement yet we Will not stop nor falter if denied our inner truth because we know the time is now. I'll do it alone if I have to but rather we are one...
Ya think? 
Cheers to the meeting of minds! May we ALL come to an understanding, yea ALL come to an understanding.
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@Asraiya said
"...theories on indigo adults which I would love to know the official A.'.A.'. take on..."
There is no official take on this topic.
"The frustration or fear of those of us who have been wondering while working a spiritual path since birth is to not be recognized as "special""
Everybody walks the same path. If you truly have abilities greater than others, then you will move through the steps more quickly. But there's no skipping. If you believe you have already covered part of the path, then the proper step is to ratify it by rewalking it under monitoring eyes.
"I know that I've existed out of Tipareth for quite some time and have been attempting to leap like the fool into the abyss"
Then there should be no problem affirming that the foundation is in place, eh? These are develpmental stages and are cumulative.
"This is the conflict you are getting from all these renegade initiates We trust No One but ourself and are self conflicted by the need for acknowledgement..."
I wish you well. If you feel the system has nothing to offer you, then obviously you will need to look elsewhere. All your choice.
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93 Jim,
I feel this whole thread has the feeling of attacking you and your lineage and I have no desire to do so contrary to the one who insists they are the head of the A.'.A.'. That is not me at all! I was simply trying to give voice to the general thought patterns of those of us who find explaination for ourself and our differences in thought and feel inclined to accept the title of "Indigo child or adult". I'm saddened that the A.'.A.'. doesn't have an official take on (perhaps this should be a whole new thread) on Indigos since it's not just a new age (which I abhor the term btw as I relate it to to all the hippy dippyness of it's golden age- approx. late 90's as well as the heartbreak we all felt at the failure of making that "rainbow bridge" at the gatherings around 97-98, and then all the cheesy scams like JC Knight's Ramtha channeling etc.) but it's not that new of a concept since I first found it in Arthur C. Clarke's book "Childhood's End" which was written in the 50's, 1956 I believe. (Yes I acknowledge it's fiction but the concept is not new...)I, like I said, have felt a destiny with what is called the A.'.A.'. since reading RAW who also mentions the OTO and this intuition was proven correct after some minor inquiries amongst friends when I was introduced to a fellow by the name of Bill Heidrick during said friend's band practice who gave me the phone number to inquire about attending Mass at Thelema lodge back in 2001. The truth rings like a bell- meaning it has a resonance which we can feel! That's what I mean by "we will trust No One save ourself". There is no doubt in my mind that the A.'.A.'. has something to offer me and vice versa. I feel it is intrinsic to the very nature of our work yet there is this barrier of politics, drama and egoism and much other irrelevant turmoil that must be overcome immediantly in order for the newer generations to communicate with the elder. For an example there is an onslaught of medical examiners quick to diagnose babies with autism when they are far from autistic, they are in fact telepathic!
Onward to the breach dear friends, onwards!
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I only claim to be the head of AN A.'.A.'. not "the A.'.A.'." which is more like a platonic ideal.
The inner or 3rd order is described in the cloud upon the sanctuary quite well.
He states that all churches are external expressions ore the one TRUE inner church, and thus their differences in dogma are superficial. That the TRUTH of the inner church is expressed via an inner sensory organ, and the external church creates rituals lessons, dogma and such that try to express that inner TRUTH in a form sensible to the external sensory organs. In receptive individuals secret interpretation and mysteries help that person to develop his inner sensory organ.
Thus the A.'.A.'. refers to one such order that unites the external lower grades with the internal higher grades, but it also refers to that inner order itself.
My claim is that any external order that originates from that INNER TRUTH is rightfully called the A.'.A.'., when its express purpose in not the mere administration of external rites, but the training of adepts to open that inner sense to the TRUTH behind the external appearance.
Thus my A.'. A.'. in externally different from sone other A.'.A.'. just as every local A.'.A.'. is different, but they all derive from the same source, the inner Truth, The Word of the Aeon.
That is the plan anyway, but I openly admit that I have not yet formulated my A.'.A.'. let alone established its Unity with the Word.
Establishing the outer shell is my task as a magister, infusing the WORD is the task of a Magus.
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@Froclown said
"I only claim to be the head of AN A.'.A.'. not "the A.'.A.'." which is more like a platonic ideal.
The inner or 3rd order is described in the cloud upon the sanctuary quite well.
He states that all churches are external expressions ore the one TRUE inner church, and thus their differences in dogma are superficial. That the TRUTH of the inner church is expressed via an inner sensory organ, and the external church creates rituals lessons, dogma and such that try to express that inner TRUTH in a form sensible to the external sensory organs. In receptive individuals secret interpretation and mysteries help that person to develop his inner sensory organ.
Thus the A.'.A.'. refers to one such order that unites the external lower grades with the internal higher grades, but it also refers to that inner order itself.
My claim is that any external order that originates from that INNER TRUTH is rightfully called the A.'.A.'., when its express purpose in not the mere administration of external rites, but the training of adepts to open that inner sense to the TRUTH behind the external appearance.
Thus my A.'. A.'. in externally different from sone other A.'.A.'. just as every local A.'.A.'. is different, but they all derive from the same source, the inner Truth, The Word of the Aeon.
That is the plan anyway, but I openly admit that I have not yet formulated my A.'.A.'. let alone established its Unity with the Word.
Establishing the outer shell is my task as a magister, infusing the WORD is the task of a Magus."
Dude, this post is kind of scaring me.
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Buddhists don't need permission or lineage to start Buddhist temples, and Shinto priests can build shrines anywhere they like.
So long as the shrine houses one or more "Kami" (Gods or spirits) and people come to give prayers and offerings, the temple is considered sacred.
The same with the Greek pagan temples.Well I am building a temple for Horus, and the Kami of thelema, A shrine to the spirit or current of Thelema. Nat a mere external temple such as the OTO, but a temple that contains the inner sanctuary, the gnostic light of TRUTH itself.
Such a temple is dedicated to the A.'.A.'. the inner or third order.
I see no reason to impose a name upon my particular order that only serves to confuse people as to the nature of its purpose.
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@Metzareph said
"Dude, this post is kind of scaring me."
Shrug, even if Froclown is serious about this (though somehow I doubt it, given the Discordian admission), people can still quote Matthew 7:16 and "you get the teacher you deserve" to their hearts content, like they do about all of the other A.'.A.'. lineages. Statements like "not kept written records as orderly as one should" and "I may lumber a bit on physically doing things, but I have attained much on the inner planes" are certainly telling of a potential teacher's worth (not to mention the various misogynist statements made by F'clown on this website among others).
By the way Froclown - I think its funny you are suddenly claiming all this stuff about inner planes and hailing inner orders... weren't you psychologizing and technologizing the whole spiritual experience a week or two ago? If it happens that you are serious about "running an A.'.A.'." you're clearly using that name to ride on the coat-tails of the reputation of Crowley's order, and not sincere in your appreciation of "inner order" in any way shape or form. Without that time-tested name A.'.A.'., you've got nothing but a jumble of disconnected and untested ideas about the future, psychology, yoga, and the occult. If you had a serious system, one worthy of students on its own merits, then you'd have the balls to call it by its own name.
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I think perhaps we only differ on our understanding of what the "spiritual" and "inner orders" mean.
I am ultimately a transcendental materialist.
My statements which you suppose to be misogynistic were far less so than Crowley's misogynism. But in truth they were not anti-woman but rather anti a certain type of woman. That is woman who has no higher concerns than basic biological needs. That is the Female black magician, whose interest are in to use sex appeal to seduce men into giving them shiny stones and children. All just ornaments that say look at me, look at me.
Such women (Which is to say most women, save a few Thelemic examples) are not concerned with the Great Work. They contribute little and are most removed from the "current". I spoke ill modern culture and its origin in the old aeon, and and chastised woman for allowing this culture to appeal to the lowest elements of her nature. A culture which depends upon Feminine vanity and obsession with image over substance which is destroying all true art, literature, and even the higher exploits of the sciences.
My only claim with regard to the A.'.A.'. is that it is not the building ar the lineage that makes it the A.'.A.'. It is the intent to initiate members into the Hermetic arts, reformulated to express the now Aeon perspective.
That of the individual as relative center, rather that the almighty "some other thing thats not oneself"
The A.'.A.'. is not worship of some order, it is found in oneself. We are all Ipssissimus at our core, the trick is to raise our awareness of our true inner nature. Rather that the old aeon formula of exalting some GOD or savior.
If I can assist one member into the light, then I feel my order is a success. And a True representative of the inner order.
As far as riding Crowley's coat tails, why should I not? Hawking rides Einstein's coat tails, took over for Newton. And they are all considered Physicists, even though they don't have official lineage or permission to continue from eachother's works and each teaches his own method and theories of physics, yet they all teach physics. How can that be? maybe because each man is in contact with the platonic IDEAL of physics, they teach different things yet to study any of them is to contact that inner order called the brotherhood of physics professors.
So I having studied Thelema and the A.'.A.'. and made progress in the things that it teaches, wish to teach the A.'.A.'. to others.
"And he must teach"
I don't see why anyone would have a problem with that.
Clearly I openly admit to having no direct lineage and I admit I have flaws in some areas of discipline, so I am not deceitful.Responsibility to the initiates will give me incentive to keep better records.
When I practiced alone, I did not need people reading my journals nor did I have anyone to inspect them. I realize I ran into problems because I didn't have an objective record to judge my progress, I wish I had kept records, but hind sight is 20/20 they say. -
And Discordianism.
As I said before each sepheroth has a religious or philosophical perspective which to fully accept that philosophy "religiously" is a means to attain the awareness of that Sepheroth, which is half way to the grade associated with it.
Anyway Discordianism relates mostly to Daath If you compare the Discordian doctrines with "Liber OS ABYSMI vel DAATH" you will see that as you get deep into Discordianism especially if you are also a Philosophy major, you are performing the very same rites.
Also The Apple of Discord, is a direct parallel to the Cup of Babalon, with Eris as the mother Goddess that relates to Binna. I think it obvious that Discordia makes a fine consort for CHAOS, the Lord of Chokmah.
If approached properly "nothing is true; Everything is permissible" as a mantra produces the same experience and results as "the soldier and the hunchback." Ultimately its a total banishing, the result leaves one a "babe of the abyss"
The book af lies fits in just as well with Thelema as Discordianism.
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Froclown -
The sheer breadth and depth of your misapprehensions concerning just about everything you've written about on this forum is quite breathtaking. Just about everything you post is contradicted by something else posted by you a few days earlier. You talk about getting students as a goad to get you to keep records. What do you intend to tell them about the importance of the Magical Record? To wait until they have students of their own before they have to do so?
I don't think I've ever read anyone on this forum who talks out his ass quite as well as you do and I pity anyone who buys into your bullshit enough to accept you as a teacher.
I normally wouldn't bother saying any of this, but I find the overwhelming evidence in many of your posts of a deep and abiding hatred of women quite distasteful. Fro' you are a sad, pathetic little man.
Dan
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JAE is so patient with you. There's no way anyone on this list can take what you say seriously. Your viewpoint has no reference points or vocabulary that anyone can relate to.
It would be more beneficial if you actually had something to communicate to us so we could respond to you. Otherwise, you may find that no one responds to you, and it will be as if you are invisible.
In L.V.X.,
chrys333