Treating Spirits with respect.
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I think Crowley said TRUE WILLs are not in conflict with the dynamic of the universal.
The WILL of a lion to rip a Gazelle to bits, does not indicate that the Gazelle has a WILL to be ripped to bits.
But is a universal sense it is a necessary part of being a Gazelle that one aspect of that life is no be potential food for lions.
It is also an essential aspect af being a lion that it potentially eat Gazelle.
If the Lion feels sorry for the Gazelle and refuses to eat, it will die. If the Gazelle feel sorry for the lion then they may sacrifice themselves to the lion, and here we have the beginnings of an Osiris Aeon cult.
If the weak are given to the lion out of fear, we have an Isis cult.
If both Lion and Gazelle accepts who he is, and acts without fear or pity, the Gazelle running fearlessly through the savanna, chancing death but not meeting it with anxiety, for it is only with respectful indifference to the risks that the beast hops and plays feely.
The Lion must stalk and hunt, take pleasure fully in the kill, engorge itself on the flesh of his prey, without remorse. For if the Lion despises himself, thinks his hunting a Sin, weeps for his kill, then he is an example of the weak and down trodden that are to be stomped down. He would be nothing but a depressed, neurotic, self-hating mess. Not unlike the casualties of Osiris's religions.
Now, both hunter and prey have a true WILL, and each takes joy in his WILL. Though they may fight in the flesh, each if free in spirit.
hunter-prey Master-slave same diff.
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Froclown, could you make your point using human examples? I'm not sure the hunter-prey / master-slave relationship connection your making is very clear.
From your perspective, it seems to me that you would believe Crowley's view of True Will would have supported Hitler's actions as well as Hitler's defeat and would support the current "war on terror" as well as, paradoxically, the terrorists who target their prey, the general populace, as a proxy attack on their real prey, the governments of the general populace. It seems you would believe Crowley endorsed any selfish act or selfless act; essentially anything whatsoever.
It would be convenient, then, if you would use these examples of Hitler, War On Terror, Terrorism and General Populace to clarify your point in detail. These are situations which define human freedom of choice and self-awareness we can apply more sensibly to the discussion than the instinctual behavior of gazelles and lions, which is not the experience of anyone here, as we are all human beings.
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Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the Law
@redd fezz said
" I just sort of feel that if you continually cop to the "everything we do is our Will" thing then you will never progress or need to progress beyond the limited perspective you were born with. "
read my post again. all we do is our will. when we're not doing our will, we're not really doing anything. we're failing to do.
"What impetus is there to go beyond your daily urges if you can just casually justify anything by saying "all I do is my Will!""
the same impetus that makes us go into the temple every day when, in fact, everything we do is a magickal act. it's often called "aspiration." perhaps you've heard of it
i disagree that the gazelle/lion metaphor has any similarity to hitler or the war on terror.
in both cases, we had a situation where religions cursed in chapter three tear each other apart like scorpions in a bottle (remember, hitler was a roman christist.) it has no bearing on the discussion.
Love is the law, love under will
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@luxinhominefactum said
"read my post again. all we do is our will. when we're not doing our will, we're not really doing anything. we're failing to do."
Since you are putting it so simply, please explain further: if I want to make a sandwich but I also don't want to get up and do it at the moment, am I failing to do or am I doing my will?
"
"What impetus is there to go beyond your daily urges if you can just casually justify anything by saying "all I do is my Will!""the same impetus that makes us go into the temple every day when, in fact, everything we do is a magical act. it's often called "aspiration." perhaps you've heard of it
"Aspiration actually comes from the belief that there is something more which is obtainable. Thelema is a philosophy of life that aspires to more than "I do something because I want to." It is about the discovery of True Will. It is a system of spiritual evolution that goes beyond Darwin and Nietzche.
"i disagree that the gazelle/lion metaphor has any similarity to hitler or the war on terror."
I disagree that the gazelle/lion metaphor has any relevance to human experience of free choice and self-awarenes implicit in the discussion of True Will.
"in both cases, we had a situation where religions cursed in chapter three tear each other apart like scorpions in a bottle (remember, hitler was a roman christist.) it has no bearing on the discussion."
If you think the gazelle/lion metaphor has more baring on this discussion of True Will than actual human experience, consider the following...
Crowley actively opposed Hitler as much as Hitler opposed Thelema. Crowley shot animals for sport. I'm pretty sure he was opposed to shooting humans for sport.
If a lion is the perfect example of True Will, since lions are perfectly true to their lion-ness, then please explain how that exactly "works out" when two lions are fighting over the same gazelle. It reduces to absurdity in light of the following instruction:
"Every man has a right to fulfill his own will without being afraid that it may interfere with that of others; for if he is in his proper place, it is the fault of others if they interfere with him."
So, which lion is at fault here? Both are 'true will lions' yet both fighting over the same gazelle!
If it is simply a matter of whichever wins, then you are just talking about "survival of the fittest." That's not Thelema. All the Aeonic propositions inherent in Thelema prove that this is not the point of Thelema. Because Crowley would not stand by and say, "Yep, that's The Law of Thelema!" if a new breed of religious fascism wiped out all the Thelemites and burned every last Book of The Law. -
@Redd Fezz said
"If a lion is the perfect example of True Will, since lions are perfectly true to their lion-ness, then please explain how that exactly "works out" when two lions are fighting over the same gazelle. "
In nature, that doesn't tend to be the case. Lions collaborate in bringing down the gazelle, and then take turns eating it.
I do think that, most of the time, cats are smarter than humans.
""Every man has a right to fulfill his own will without being afraid that it may interfere with that of others; for if he is in his proper place, it is the fault of others if they interfere with him.""
"Right" is an interesting word. I defend it entirely. However, having the right to so act doesn't mean that it's always the most intelligent move. I still hold that most drivers keep track of whether they are in the right lane by noticing where the other cars are driving.
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Your definition of intelligence seems to be at odds with the literal definition, but I get your point. Though, I don't agree with it and hope it is more of a joke than for serious.
Your comment about car lanes is exactly what I'm thinking about. In my experience, it seems that discovering your True Will is about finding your rightful place within the "universal pattern," just as driving down the street is all about finding your right place in the traffic pattern. Your will might be to get to work faster, but that could be very at odds with your True Will if you wind up paralyzed due to utterly stupid driving choices.
At the same time, your "rightful place" is always wherever you are because your experience does always manifest from the source of your potentiality, your "secret sun." But, discovering your True Will is clicking into what works for you, ultimately, not in the moment. According to Crowley, one person's True Will can never interfere with another's. So, calling up a spirit and demanding it do your bidding lest you torture it seems, to me, about as wise as driving down the wrong side of the street.
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Doing your WILL means just that in is your own WILL, I can not say what is right or wrong.
So long as Hitler was being the best Hitler he could be, and not acting out of fear, guilt, self-loathing, etc. Then He was True to himself, his WILL was True.
If you hold yourself back, then your WILL falls short of its mark. If you do what you are told is the moral thing to do, and deny your "beastly" nature to act against the moral rules, then you are aiming at the MARK of morality, thus your actions are not TRUE to your WILL.
When an arrow hits its mark, then your aim was True, the arrow was true to its target.
If ones aim is distracted by another target, the arrow is not true to its target.
If one fears it is wrong morally to hit the target, say its a child of a wolf cub, so one pulls the bow to half tension, the arrow will fall short. and is not TRUE to its Target.
TRUE WILL, is like a true arrow.
Success is thy proof.
If Will stops to ask why...
Then in power weakness.
Thelema calls us to be potent, focused, undistracted and not watered down by sentiment and morality.
You want a human example, read Atlas Shrugged.
The whole book is about the TRUE WILL of people who run business, and how liberal notions of equality that make powerful men work at lower capacity in the name of common good, destroy the human spirit and make a mess of progress.
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Let me repeat myself, friend: According to Crowley, one person's True Will can never interfere with another's.
So, Hitler's failure and Crowley's opposition of the man is proof he wasn't following his True Will. The funny thing about thinking you know your True Will before you actually do is how easy it is to screw up.
A good checklist would be:
- How many beings oppose my view?
- How logical is that opposition?
- Does it appear I am right?
- Am I successful?
- Does it appear I will be?
In Hitler's case, it probably did.
... but then, if you're Hitler...
guess what?
YES, THAT'S RIGHT:
http://img357.imageshack.us/img357/2787/fail2it9.jpg
YOU'RE A FOCKING DOUCHEBAG! SURPRISE! (Not YOU, I mean HITLER)
It's easy to figure out why if you go through the above checklist. There's no effing way he could be following his True Will because there's no way it was the True Will of the rest of the races on earth to be killed and/or enslaved. But, Thelema isn't really for insane people or megalomaniacs.
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megalomania itself is a sign that one does not know ones proper limits.
It seem s to me that Hitlers proper place was as an artist, but this was denied to him, and his political career was nothing but a tantrum in responce to his failed art.
Thus, it was not his WILL to be Fuhrer, but that was like a strong pull of the bow, aimed at a target that was not properly his own.
Hitler seemed like a very depressed and self loathing man, this is the proof he was not following his WILL. Where as a proud and joyous Sadist like De Sade or Vlad Tepis, it seems was TRUE to his nature and WILL.
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93,
"
You want a human example, read Atlas Shrugged.The whole book is about the TRUE WILL of people who run business, and how liberal notions of equality that make powerful men work at lower capacity in the name of common good, destroy the human spirit and make a mess of progress."
Actually, it isn't a good example. Ayn Rand's entire philosophy, Objectivism, is based around her own definition of rationality, which goes against the notion of any "factor infinite and unknown." Reason, she affirmed throughout her life, is never a lie. And she spends scores of pages in the book, especially in John Galt's "A is A" speech, attacking the very notion of a mystical perspective.
Oddly, in Atlas Shrugged she lapsed into what academics (not magicians!) call 'magical thinking.' Hank Rearden buys a used-up old mine and lo, there is lots of ore there. He then sets out to create a super-metal that defies the rules of chemistry. Dagnar Ranneskjold's ship is faster than anyone else's. By means of his superior reason, Galt can endure torture. And so on.
What she firmly denies exists at her front door, she permits to enter by the kitchen window. Not a good example for Thelemites.
93 93/93,
EM
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@Edward Mason said
"93,
"You want a human example, read Atlas Shrugged."
Actually, it isn't a good example."
The Fountainhead (written earlier) might be better, since it doesn't have as much of the weirdness. Good stuff happens to the good guys, bad stuff happens to the bad guys, but not in such a deus ex machina way as the "magical thinking" examples you gave. But, hey, these were allegories.
I think we can all probably admit that Ayn Rand's conception of the Tree of Life (if we can map systems) effectively stopped at Daath. Not an uncommon problem in the 20th and 21st centuries. I've always interpreted a lot of the "sin of Because" and "factor infinite and unknown" stuff as applying to Daath and the supernals, anyway.
Finding and doing the True Will seems to be something that can be done at the "lower" levels (with appropriate influx from the supernals, sure, but does that need to encompass conscious acceptance of the supernals?)
We're now far from 'Treating spirits with respect.' Maybe a new thread called "Knowing and Doing True Will" ?
Steve
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I was talking about the book, not Rand in general.
Also there is no reason a book can't contain fanciful elements in order to make a point.
Also the mystical theory need not conclude that A is not A, but that while A is A, A may seem other than A due to the process of perception.
We may conclude that we never know A as A, but that A induces phenomenal appearances in the mind which represent A.
The nature of there phenomena are subject to alteration by ritual and WILLED manipulation of the perceptual process of the mind.
Thus A ----> mental phenomena B under standard conditions,
Yet under ritual conditions A---> mental phenomena C
A say --> as in yields, such as in a chemistry equation.
The products of the equation are the world we know, the reactants are the world as it is.
There is no method to discover the reactants, as only after they react do they become elements of awareness.
Hadit and NUIT can express this idea.
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Froclown, 93,
You said:
"Also the mystical theory need not conclude that A is not A, but that while A is A, A may seem other than A due to the process of perception.
We may conclude that we never know A as A, but that A induces phenomenal appearances in the mind which represent A.
"We may indeed. But Rand's point is Aristotle's - that there is no validity in any mystical perceptions, and if A is what it is, it can't be anything else (B, for example). She outwardly refutes mysticism as nonsense in the book, and did so throughout her life.
This is relevant to respecting our Goetic spirits here, for one issue about them is that they are taken to be psychological realities at one point and, in ritual, as objectively existing entities. Aristotle - and Rand - would have ruled such notions out of order.
After getting through Atlas Shrugged twice, I felt I couldn't face The Fountainhead (how much bad sex and shallow characterization can one reader handle in a single lifetime?) and I've never read that. Yet Rand can be fascinating, and Atlas Shrugged is one of the most God-haunted books I've come across. But in that fascination I also find her dishonesty. She is entranced by her concept of reason, and her Objectivism is plainly mystical, or at least excessive in its reverence for its core idea.
If you read Jung's thoughts about how Freud was captivated and mesmerized by the numinous quality of sexuality, you find yourself on similar ground. Reason is a tool, just as physical sex is the dissolution-in-Assiah (admittedly <b>way</b> more fun than logical argument), but doesn't and can't encompass the total experience of dissolution in Nuit.
93 93/93,
EM
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Agree about Ayn Rand, Steve and Edward. She reminds me of the series "Heroes", where people who feel they have special gifts, and a destiny that uses those gifts for a greater purpose than mundane people who are conventional.
Except that Ayn Rand cuts out the whole mystical side of life as having any validity. Or says she does.
Froclown, interesting name. In the bible, they use the word "Froward".
It means "habitually disposed to disobedience and opposition ".
(wordnet.princeton.edu/perl/webwn)
Since Thelema is about rituals that bring forth powers of transformation, again, I say, how can you be a Thelemite and admire Ayn Rand? She is very shallow and one dimensional, compared to the wealth of subconscious images that Crowley writes about.
Thelemites worship Nuit, glorious ecstasy, mind blowing (no rational mind thoughts during the explosion).
Froclown, do you study the keys of the Tarot and the Tree of Life? Do study the qabalah? Do you call on those Enochian fallen angels? Have you done the rituals? Have you joined the COT and are doing the lessons?
If you do not, how can you a Thelemite?
Where is your fierce joy?
No offense, but sincerely puzzled.
chrys333 -
@Chris Hanlon said
"Froclown, interesting name. In the bible, they use the word "Froward". It means "habitually disposed to disobedience and opposition "."
I'm curious to hear Froclown's response. I've just been picturing a clown with a righteous 'fro (Damon Wayans' "Homey the Clown?") The Fool archetype is a powerful one to adopt...
"Since Thelema is about rituals that bring forth powers of transformation, again, I say, how can you be a Thelemite and admire Ayn Rand? She is very shallow and one dimensional, compared to the wealth of subconscious images that Crowley writes about.
Thelemites worship Nuit, glorious ecstasy, mind blowing (no rational mind thoughts during the explosion).
Froclown, do you study the keys of the Tarot and the Tree of Life? Do study the qabalah? Do you call on those Enochian fallen angels? Have you done the rituals? Have you joined the COT and are doing the lessons?
If you do not, how can you a Thelemite?
Where is your fierce joy?"
I think it's possible to be a Thelemite without literally doing rituals, literally worshipping anything, studying the Tarot or the Tree of Life, calling ceremonially on angels, or joining any Thelemic organizations. What about merely taking the Book of the Law into one's bosom and striving to live life by its poetic, evocative, and powerful words?
Of course, I personally find a lot of worth in Tarot, Qabalah, and Enochian as wonderful symbol-sets for obtaining a better understanding of these topics. I'm exploring the "path of initiation" too (albeit in the "slow lane" compared to many others' initiatory paths). But if someone decides not to use these trappings, I don't think that needs to be a disqualifying factor.
I greatly respect the "fierce joy" of people like David Brin and Hal Duncan and Eliezer Yudkowsky, who don't have anything to do with the standard trappings of the occult, but whom I think embody many of the positive virtues that (IMHO!) Thelema should teach. (Note that I'm not saying that they're some kind of "crypto-Thelemites" or that the label Thelemite should be expanded so widely to people who have never heard of Liber Legis, etc.)
Steve
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@Froclown said
"It seem s to me that Hitlers proper place was as an artist, but this was denied to him, and his political career was nothing but a tantrum in responce to his failed art. "
According to his horoscope, his actual nature was involvement in acquiring and wielding power, especially through means such as the political, economic, and militaristic, with a particular emphasis om the imperialistic and on the purification and restoration of the underlying mythos and mass archetype of his people.
In this, to a great extent, he succeeded, at least for a time. As an artist he never succeeded.
"Thus, it was not his WILL to be Fuhrer, but that was like a strong pull of the bow, aimed at a target that was not properly his own. "
According to his horoscope, it was his True Will to be Fuhrer (or some similar manifestation of destiny).
Below is his horoscope. Interpretive materials for signs, aspects, angularity, etc. can be found in the various sub-sectons of olunars.net/viewforum.php?f=3
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Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the Law
@Redd Fezz said
" A good checklist would be:
- How many beings oppose my view?"
nonsense. that's conformity, not will. "Ye are against the people, O my chosen!"
"2. How logical is that opposition? "
"He shall fall down into the pit called Because, and there he shall perish with the dogs of Reason."
"3. Does it appear I am right? "
...i don't even know where to start with this...
appearances are immaterial and illusory. you'll Certainly discover situations where acting in harmony with your will shall seem absurd - even Wrong. we may be children of the new aeon, but we've still got loads of programming from the various osirian currents that the vast majority of us grew up with.
"right and wrong" imply there are absolute, inflexible standards to determine conduct. this simply isn't the case.
"4. Am I successful? "
this, in fact, is the only piece of your checklist that i find to be in harmony with liber AL vel Legis.
"5. Does it appear I will be? "
it doesn't matter how things appear!
"42. Let it be that state of manyhood bound and loathing. So with thy all; thou hast no right but to do thy will.
- Do that, and no other shall say nay. "
Love is the law, love under will
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Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the Law
personally, ayn rand makes me want to vomit on somebody. preferably someone with a copy of one of her books, so i can make it smelly. but that's just me.
@steven cranmer said
"I think it's possible to be a Thelemite without literally doing rituals, literally worshipping anything, studying the Tarot or the Tree of Life, calling ceremonially on angels, or joining any Thelemic organizations. What about merely taking the Book of the Law into one's bosom and striving to live life by its poetic, evocative, and powerful words?"
absofrigginlutely!!!! yes!!!
we're not all going to be magicians, ya know. we Certainly don't all need to go join some thelemic organization or other. these ideas, this conformity, this is the detritus of monotheism - one true path to one true god and it's Totally inappropriate in the aeon of horus.
Love is the law, love under will
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If all of the above is the extent of it's meaning (which it's not), then the term True Will ceases to have any value whatsoever. For example, if one were to discover one's "True Will" is to be beaten, ripped apart and die a slow, painful death, this would only show that a specific self-destructive desire arose from a specific chain of karmic events. After which, the elements recycle and the mind stream continues on to its next phase, still ignorant, propelled forward by this latest karma to some new experience with a new "True Will." As suffering is a "purification of karma," relatively speaking, most likely the new experience will be more pleasant than the last, but of course this would depend on contributing and conditioning circumstances. So, this form of "True Will" is not actually True Will at all. It is just the ignorant drive toward another experience, without ultimate liberation from these sorts of experiences and desires. (And, unsurprisingly, Hitler's natal chart was trotted out to show the visible symbols of his karmic origin.) Crowley uses such examples to explain relative True Will between abuser and abusee. But,when all is said and done: so what? If that's all this True Will business is all about, quite frankly, who cares? Learning your "True Will" in this sense would be like finding the glass ceiling. But, Crowley says that discovery of your True Will is not a limitation of your potential, but liberation by discovering your ability to fulfill your true potential!
This is why there is another level of meaning to True Will that goes beyond simplistic ego considerations of a goal or purpose for a single lifetime. "Think not, o king, upon that lie: That Thou Must Die: verily thou shalt not die, but live. Now let it be understood: If the body of the King dissolve, he shall remain in pure ecstasy forever."
The highest level of True Will is for everyone exactly the same: to achieve deathless joy and to realize the ultimate nature of reality. The True Will is the True Will of The Universe which reveals itself in every moment: to fulfill all desires. "Take your fill of love," etc. In the relative view of karmic rebirth, these desires are fulfilled a little at a time, but we see the flow also takes it all away because nothing is permanent, solid or ultimately real in this relative perspective (yes, luxinhominefactum, everything is illusion). Which is why True Will goes beyond ego and its desires. That's the whole point which Crowley made abundantly clear! "Fry your karmic seeds," remember. Realize the Book of Lies that is Knowledge, go beyond logic, kill the ego, etc.
"To beget is to die; tie die is to beget. / Cast the Seed into the Field of Night. / Life and Death are two names of A. Kill thyself."
A human lifespan is the equivalent to a single mosquito turd in a sea of experience. To discover the True Will is to discover one's place in the Universe which is in harmony with everything and to experience the true experience that "all is joy." From a relative perspective, it is hard to see the "joy" involved when we stub our toe, get our hearts broken or accidentally saw off our hand or when the kid finds a loaded gun and blows half his face off or when a baby is born with his feet on backwards and a hairlip. But, from the ultimate perspective, these are all experiences being fulfilled without hindrance. There is an infinite gulf between consciousness and it's observation and this infinite gulf is crossed effortlessly in an instant!
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I am no great fan of objectivism, I am only half way through atlas Shrugged at this time.
I was trying to show that, the industrialists in that book were examples of people who know their WILL and stick to it. That WILL is "making money" though it cames in different flavors, steel, trains, oil, mines, etc. These became the almost super-humans they where by focusing all of their being on that goal. They were analogous to Nietzsche's ubermensch.
It was the majority of people who, ruined the works of the great men, by asking them to slow down, to act for the good of others, to give charity to those who have need, and ask nothing in return. In short they these were the weak whom the Thelemite is advised to stomp on and treat as the parasites they are.
A difference I see between Rand and Thelema, is that Thelema replaces the Capitalistic ideal of "making money" with the mystical notion of Union with Nuit.
This means the Thelemic ends "love under WILL" is broader than the Objectivists, one can do ones WILL, without interest in making money. Mother Teresa for example was able to express her WILL, without making money. Her WILL was perhaps misguided by religious notions, but one must admit that she put infinite energy into her work, not out of force by authority but personal conviction.
I may not agree with some one else's WILL but I respect it where I find it.
The Pure force of WILL is something to find Awe in, as one finds awe in a hurricane, even though one may be unhappy it destroyed the neighborhood.
As for Hitler, Riving the myths and culture of a people sounds like the work of an artist to me. I think Hitler was a great artist actually. And his was a force of WILL seldom matched on earth. Systematic genocide is certainly not anything to admire, but that one man could take the stage and take control over the mythic underpinnings of a whole nation, and nearly reshaping the world, all by appeals to artistry and poetry. I shall say such a man is a great adept of the arts. His ability is admirable, what he did with it is not. But, to say he did not do his WILL, and that Hitler did not have an important place in the course of History is just absurd.
My name, "Pope Froclown Von Hogwasher"
I took it as my Discordian name, mostly because it's so silly no one would ever take me an authority, thus they will not believe what I say unless they find merit in the words themselves.
but, the fool symbolism was also accounted for. The Hogwasher part is to be taken as one who attempts to clean up and clarify positions or contra-wise a spreader of lies and non-sense.
Thus a dual expression of the fool.