Treating Spirits with respect.
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93,
"
You want a human example, read Atlas Shrugged.The whole book is about the TRUE WILL of people who run business, and how liberal notions of equality that make powerful men work at lower capacity in the name of common good, destroy the human spirit and make a mess of progress."
Actually, it isn't a good example. Ayn Rand's entire philosophy, Objectivism, is based around her own definition of rationality, which goes against the notion of any "factor infinite and unknown." Reason, she affirmed throughout her life, is never a lie. And she spends scores of pages in the book, especially in John Galt's "A is A" speech, attacking the very notion of a mystical perspective.
Oddly, in Atlas Shrugged she lapsed into what academics (not magicians!) call 'magical thinking.' Hank Rearden buys a used-up old mine and lo, there is lots of ore there. He then sets out to create a super-metal that defies the rules of chemistry. Dagnar Ranneskjold's ship is faster than anyone else's. By means of his superior reason, Galt can endure torture. And so on.
What she firmly denies exists at her front door, she permits to enter by the kitchen window. Not a good example for Thelemites.
93 93/93,
EM
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@Edward Mason said
"93,
"You want a human example, read Atlas Shrugged."
Actually, it isn't a good example."
The Fountainhead (written earlier) might be better, since it doesn't have as much of the weirdness. Good stuff happens to the good guys, bad stuff happens to the bad guys, but not in such a deus ex machina way as the "magical thinking" examples you gave. But, hey, these were allegories.
I think we can all probably admit that Ayn Rand's conception of the Tree of Life (if we can map systems) effectively stopped at Daath. Not an uncommon problem in the 20th and 21st centuries. I've always interpreted a lot of the "sin of Because" and "factor infinite and unknown" stuff as applying to Daath and the supernals, anyway.
Finding and doing the True Will seems to be something that can be done at the "lower" levels (with appropriate influx from the supernals, sure, but does that need to encompass conscious acceptance of the supernals?)
We're now far from 'Treating spirits with respect.' Maybe a new thread called "Knowing and Doing True Will" ?
Steve
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I was talking about the book, not Rand in general.
Also there is no reason a book can't contain fanciful elements in order to make a point.
Also the mystical theory need not conclude that A is not A, but that while A is A, A may seem other than A due to the process of perception.
We may conclude that we never know A as A, but that A induces phenomenal appearances in the mind which represent A.
The nature of there phenomena are subject to alteration by ritual and WILLED manipulation of the perceptual process of the mind.
Thus A ----> mental phenomena B under standard conditions,
Yet under ritual conditions A---> mental phenomena C
A say --> as in yields, such as in a chemistry equation.
The products of the equation are the world we know, the reactants are the world as it is.
There is no method to discover the reactants, as only after they react do they become elements of awareness.
Hadit and NUIT can express this idea.
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Froclown, 93,
You said:
"Also the mystical theory need not conclude that A is not A, but that while A is A, A may seem other than A due to the process of perception.
We may conclude that we never know A as A, but that A induces phenomenal appearances in the mind which represent A.
"We may indeed. But Rand's point is Aristotle's - that there is no validity in any mystical perceptions, and if A is what it is, it can't be anything else (B, for example). She outwardly refutes mysticism as nonsense in the book, and did so throughout her life.
This is relevant to respecting our Goetic spirits here, for one issue about them is that they are taken to be psychological realities at one point and, in ritual, as objectively existing entities. Aristotle - and Rand - would have ruled such notions out of order.
After getting through Atlas Shrugged twice, I felt I couldn't face The Fountainhead (how much bad sex and shallow characterization can one reader handle in a single lifetime?) and I've never read that. Yet Rand can be fascinating, and Atlas Shrugged is one of the most God-haunted books I've come across. But in that fascination I also find her dishonesty. She is entranced by her concept of reason, and her Objectivism is plainly mystical, or at least excessive in its reverence for its core idea.
If you read Jung's thoughts about how Freud was captivated and mesmerized by the numinous quality of sexuality, you find yourself on similar ground. Reason is a tool, just as physical sex is the dissolution-in-Assiah (admittedly <b>way</b> more fun than logical argument), but doesn't and can't encompass the total experience of dissolution in Nuit.
93 93/93,
EM
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Agree about Ayn Rand, Steve and Edward. She reminds me of the series "Heroes", where people who feel they have special gifts, and a destiny that uses those gifts for a greater purpose than mundane people who are conventional.
Except that Ayn Rand cuts out the whole mystical side of life as having any validity. Or says she does.
Froclown, interesting name. In the bible, they use the word "Froward".
It means "habitually disposed to disobedience and opposition ".
(wordnet.princeton.edu/perl/webwn)
Since Thelema is about rituals that bring forth powers of transformation, again, I say, how can you be a Thelemite and admire Ayn Rand? She is very shallow and one dimensional, compared to the wealth of subconscious images that Crowley writes about.
Thelemites worship Nuit, glorious ecstasy, mind blowing (no rational mind thoughts during the explosion).
Froclown, do you study the keys of the Tarot and the Tree of Life? Do study the qabalah? Do you call on those Enochian fallen angels? Have you done the rituals? Have you joined the COT and are doing the lessons?
If you do not, how can you a Thelemite?
Where is your fierce joy?
No offense, but sincerely puzzled.
chrys333 -
@Chris Hanlon said
"Froclown, interesting name. In the bible, they use the word "Froward". It means "habitually disposed to disobedience and opposition "."
I'm curious to hear Froclown's response. I've just been picturing a clown with a righteous 'fro (Damon Wayans' "Homey the Clown?") The Fool archetype is a powerful one to adopt...
"Since Thelema is about rituals that bring forth powers of transformation, again, I say, how can you be a Thelemite and admire Ayn Rand? She is very shallow and one dimensional, compared to the wealth of subconscious images that Crowley writes about.
Thelemites worship Nuit, glorious ecstasy, mind blowing (no rational mind thoughts during the explosion).
Froclown, do you study the keys of the Tarot and the Tree of Life? Do study the qabalah? Do you call on those Enochian fallen angels? Have you done the rituals? Have you joined the COT and are doing the lessons?
If you do not, how can you a Thelemite?
Where is your fierce joy?"
I think it's possible to be a Thelemite without literally doing rituals, literally worshipping anything, studying the Tarot or the Tree of Life, calling ceremonially on angels, or joining any Thelemic organizations. What about merely taking the Book of the Law into one's bosom and striving to live life by its poetic, evocative, and powerful words?
Of course, I personally find a lot of worth in Tarot, Qabalah, and Enochian as wonderful symbol-sets for obtaining a better understanding of these topics. I'm exploring the "path of initiation" too (albeit in the "slow lane" compared to many others' initiatory paths). But if someone decides not to use these trappings, I don't think that needs to be a disqualifying factor.
I greatly respect the "fierce joy" of people like David Brin and Hal Duncan and Eliezer Yudkowsky, who don't have anything to do with the standard trappings of the occult, but whom I think embody many of the positive virtues that (IMHO!) Thelema should teach. (Note that I'm not saying that they're some kind of "crypto-Thelemites" or that the label Thelemite should be expanded so widely to people who have never heard of Liber Legis, etc.)
Steve
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@Froclown said
"It seem s to me that Hitlers proper place was as an artist, but this was denied to him, and his political career was nothing but a tantrum in responce to his failed art. "
According to his horoscope, his actual nature was involvement in acquiring and wielding power, especially through means such as the political, economic, and militaristic, with a particular emphasis om the imperialistic and on the purification and restoration of the underlying mythos and mass archetype of his people.
In this, to a great extent, he succeeded, at least for a time. As an artist he never succeeded.
"Thus, it was not his WILL to be Fuhrer, but that was like a strong pull of the bow, aimed at a target that was not properly his own. "
According to his horoscope, it was his True Will to be Fuhrer (or some similar manifestation of destiny).
Below is his horoscope. Interpretive materials for signs, aspects, angularity, etc. can be found in the various sub-sectons of olunars.net/viewforum.php?f=3
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Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the Law
@Redd Fezz said
" A good checklist would be:
- How many beings oppose my view?"
nonsense. that's conformity, not will. "Ye are against the people, O my chosen!"
"2. How logical is that opposition? "
"He shall fall down into the pit called Because, and there he shall perish with the dogs of Reason."
"3. Does it appear I am right? "
...i don't even know where to start with this...
appearances are immaterial and illusory. you'll Certainly discover situations where acting in harmony with your will shall seem absurd - even Wrong. we may be children of the new aeon, but we've still got loads of programming from the various osirian currents that the vast majority of us grew up with.
"right and wrong" imply there are absolute, inflexible standards to determine conduct. this simply isn't the case.
"4. Am I successful? "
this, in fact, is the only piece of your checklist that i find to be in harmony with liber AL vel Legis.
"5. Does it appear I will be? "
it doesn't matter how things appear!
"42. Let it be that state of manyhood bound and loathing. So with thy all; thou hast no right but to do thy will.
- Do that, and no other shall say nay. "
Love is the law, love under will
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Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the Law
personally, ayn rand makes me want to vomit on somebody. preferably someone with a copy of one of her books, so i can make it smelly. but that's just me.
@steven cranmer said
"I think it's possible to be a Thelemite without literally doing rituals, literally worshipping anything, studying the Tarot or the Tree of Life, calling ceremonially on angels, or joining any Thelemic organizations. What about merely taking the Book of the Law into one's bosom and striving to live life by its poetic, evocative, and powerful words?"
absofrigginlutely!!!! yes!!!
we're not all going to be magicians, ya know. we Certainly don't all need to go join some thelemic organization or other. these ideas, this conformity, this is the detritus of monotheism - one true path to one true god and it's Totally inappropriate in the aeon of horus.
Love is the law, love under will
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If all of the above is the extent of it's meaning (which it's not), then the term True Will ceases to have any value whatsoever. For example, if one were to discover one's "True Will" is to be beaten, ripped apart and die a slow, painful death, this would only show that a specific self-destructive desire arose from a specific chain of karmic events. After which, the elements recycle and the mind stream continues on to its next phase, still ignorant, propelled forward by this latest karma to some new experience with a new "True Will." As suffering is a "purification of karma," relatively speaking, most likely the new experience will be more pleasant than the last, but of course this would depend on contributing and conditioning circumstances. So, this form of "True Will" is not actually True Will at all. It is just the ignorant drive toward another experience, without ultimate liberation from these sorts of experiences and desires. (And, unsurprisingly, Hitler's natal chart was trotted out to show the visible symbols of his karmic origin.) Crowley uses such examples to explain relative True Will between abuser and abusee. But,when all is said and done: so what? If that's all this True Will business is all about, quite frankly, who cares? Learning your "True Will" in this sense would be like finding the glass ceiling. But, Crowley says that discovery of your True Will is not a limitation of your potential, but liberation by discovering your ability to fulfill your true potential!
This is why there is another level of meaning to True Will that goes beyond simplistic ego considerations of a goal or purpose for a single lifetime. "Think not, o king, upon that lie: That Thou Must Die: verily thou shalt not die, but live. Now let it be understood: If the body of the King dissolve, he shall remain in pure ecstasy forever."
The highest level of True Will is for everyone exactly the same: to achieve deathless joy and to realize the ultimate nature of reality. The True Will is the True Will of The Universe which reveals itself in every moment: to fulfill all desires. "Take your fill of love," etc. In the relative view of karmic rebirth, these desires are fulfilled a little at a time, but we see the flow also takes it all away because nothing is permanent, solid or ultimately real in this relative perspective (yes, luxinhominefactum, everything is illusion). Which is why True Will goes beyond ego and its desires. That's the whole point which Crowley made abundantly clear! "Fry your karmic seeds," remember. Realize the Book of Lies that is Knowledge, go beyond logic, kill the ego, etc.
"To beget is to die; tie die is to beget. / Cast the Seed into the Field of Night. / Life and Death are two names of A. Kill thyself."
A human lifespan is the equivalent to a single mosquito turd in a sea of experience. To discover the True Will is to discover one's place in the Universe which is in harmony with everything and to experience the true experience that "all is joy." From a relative perspective, it is hard to see the "joy" involved when we stub our toe, get our hearts broken or accidentally saw off our hand or when the kid finds a loaded gun and blows half his face off or when a baby is born with his feet on backwards and a hairlip. But, from the ultimate perspective, these are all experiences being fulfilled without hindrance. There is an infinite gulf between consciousness and it's observation and this infinite gulf is crossed effortlessly in an instant!
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I am no great fan of objectivism, I am only half way through atlas Shrugged at this time.
I was trying to show that, the industrialists in that book were examples of people who know their WILL and stick to it. That WILL is "making money" though it cames in different flavors, steel, trains, oil, mines, etc. These became the almost super-humans they where by focusing all of their being on that goal. They were analogous to Nietzsche's ubermensch.
It was the majority of people who, ruined the works of the great men, by asking them to slow down, to act for the good of others, to give charity to those who have need, and ask nothing in return. In short they these were the weak whom the Thelemite is advised to stomp on and treat as the parasites they are.
A difference I see between Rand and Thelema, is that Thelema replaces the Capitalistic ideal of "making money" with the mystical notion of Union with Nuit.
This means the Thelemic ends "love under WILL" is broader than the Objectivists, one can do ones WILL, without interest in making money. Mother Teresa for example was able to express her WILL, without making money. Her WILL was perhaps misguided by religious notions, but one must admit that she put infinite energy into her work, not out of force by authority but personal conviction.
I may not agree with some one else's WILL but I respect it where I find it.
The Pure force of WILL is something to find Awe in, as one finds awe in a hurricane, even though one may be unhappy it destroyed the neighborhood.
As for Hitler, Riving the myths and culture of a people sounds like the work of an artist to me. I think Hitler was a great artist actually. And his was a force of WILL seldom matched on earth. Systematic genocide is certainly not anything to admire, but that one man could take the stage and take control over the mythic underpinnings of a whole nation, and nearly reshaping the world, all by appeals to artistry and poetry. I shall say such a man is a great adept of the arts. His ability is admirable, what he did with it is not. But, to say he did not do his WILL, and that Hitler did not have an important place in the course of History is just absurd.
My name, "Pope Froclown Von Hogwasher"
I took it as my Discordian name, mostly because it's so silly no one would ever take me an authority, thus they will not believe what I say unless they find merit in the words themselves.
but, the fool symbolism was also accounted for. The Hogwasher part is to be taken as one who attempts to clean up and clarify positions or contra-wise a spreader of lies and non-sense.
Thus a dual expression of the fool.
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Froclown, 93
"I was trying to show that, the industrialists in that book were examples of people who know their WILL and stick to it. That WILL is "making money" though it cames in different flavors, steel, trains, oil, mines, etc. These became the almost super-humans they where by focusing all of their being on that goal. They were analogous to Nietzsche's ubermensch. "
True Will wouldn't involve making money, mining metals, running railroads ... or conquering most of Europe. An individual person's True Will formulation would be something both wider and simpler than any of those, and the actual worldly activity would be simply a manifestation of the deeper reality. The entirety of a human life would be encompassed within True Will, so that sufferings and setbacks are included. They shape an individual's ability to express the TW. Such expression includes the total arc of life and death.
The characters in Atlas Shrugged try to reshape the entire USA, so whatever Ayn Rand protests, their intentions go far beyond their egoic needs. It's a strangely compelling read, but the ideas she espouses are dumb, and she refused to think through their contradictions. Human beings are multi-faceted, something she didn't much like admitting because it clashed with her theories.
93 93/93,
EM
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Froclown, 93,
I can see a connection, but neither of these guys was exactly fun. I always feel anyone coming at all within the outer aura of Thelema should have some warmth and mischief in them.
Chacun son guru.
93 93/93,
EM
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Dear EM,
Somehow you always say what I mean to say. My point was, yes, being a Thelemite means having ferocious life energy. Having it ignited by Crowley's visions.
In L.V.X.,
chrys333EM said:
"I can see a connection, but neither of these guys was exactly fun. I always feel anyone coming at all within the outer aura of Thelema should have some warmth and mischief in them. " -
Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the Law
@Edward Mason said
"Froclown, 93
True Will wouldn't involve making money, mining metals, running railroads ... or conquering most of Europe."
prove it. better yet, prove that an act like that is impossible to be in harmony with the true will of any star.
"An individual person's True Will formulation would be something both wider and simpler than any of those, and the actual worldly activity would be simply a manifestation of the deeper reality. "
none can know another's course. down this road lies dogma and the dog-faced demons of orthodoxy. you're welcome to your ideas about true will - more than! however, this sort of preaching as to what Is and what is Not true will... historically speaking, these kinds of ideas are where initiation ends and worship begins.
"The entirety of a human life would be encompassed within True Will, so that sufferings and setbacks are included. "
yes, and then no.
let's see what liber AL vel Legis has to say about "suffering," sorrow and the like...
"...let Asar be with Isa, who also are one. But they are not of me. Let Asar be the adorant, Isa the sufferer..."
"9. Remember all ye that existence is pure joy; that all the sorrows are but as shadows; they pass & are done; but there is that which remains. "
"17. Hear me, ye people of sighing!
The sorrows of pain and regret
Are left to the dead and the dying,
The folk that not know me as yet.""who sorroweth is not of us."
i could go on, but the point is that when you're "suffering" and facing "setbacks," you've lost hadit.
"
They shape an individual's ability to express the TW. Such expression includes the total arc of life and death."actually no, they don't. a "setback" is typically the result of a collision - the only crime in the universe! "setbacks" and the like only occur when you're acting out of harmony with your will.
Love is the law, love under will
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More important, when seen in the light of the WILL, there are no set backs, because every event is beneficial. Even a seeming obstacle is an opportunity to improve ones Skills or an indication that one is veering off course and must recalibrate ones course with the WILL.
As Nietzsche explained all our sufferings are part of what makes us who we are, to deny a painful event, or to say given life to live over again one would choose not to undergo that suffering, is to say one does not like who one is.
Thus to regret any thing one has done, is to disdain oneself, and such a negative self appraisal is contrary to Thelema.
I do not think in is anymore a mark of a Thelemite that he rejoice is mad laughter and ecstatic states continuously, any more than that he mope around depressed and sorrowful. These extremes are both distractions from the True WILL.
I should think the adept thelemite would be utterly familiar with both extremes, having fully unified with both trances, and thus having conquered them each in its turn, balancing one against the other, such that the WILL can preside over the equilibrium. In this way he can allow himself to manifest that emotion that is proper to the situation and the task facing his WILL, and also in the degree that is proper. He must control not only the Quality of emotion but also its Quantity.
Keeping in mind that ability to enter into Samadhi is not run away emotion, as one can unify the ego with any concept, sorrow, joy, pain, regret, dispationate detachment, silence, noise, one can even perform Samadhi on dispersion.
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93,
Luxinhominefactum said:
"none can know another's course. down this road lies dogma and the dog-faced demons of orthodoxy. you're welcome to your ideas about true will - more than! however, this sort of preaching as to what Is and what is Not true will... historically speaking, these kinds of ideas are where initiation ends and worship begins. "
I disagree. With different forms of information, initiation is extended. This idea that other people's opinions damage us is a bit silly. It harks back to the "You mustn't comment on Liber AL" school of thought. Protecting people from ideas is not my notion of what Thelema teaches.
"
prove it. better yet, prove that an act like that is impossible to be in harmony with the true will of any star. "I didn't say this - you keep shooting from the hip, without looking to take aim. My point is, our ultimate spiritual goal, the True Will, might include making cash, but only as an aspect of the totality of what TW represents. The TW might (as a hypothetical example) be: "To extend my scope to the infinite" and making cash could be the expression of that on the material plane. But it almost certainly wouldn't be the core truth, the vital and essential expression of being, that is True Will.
"let's see what liber AL vel Legis has to say about "suffering," sorrow and the like... "
I know what Liber AL says. My point is that each incarnate person experiences sorrow, at least until 8=3 A.'.A.'., and (for all we know) beyond that. Sorrow might, in the final analysis, may involve an incorrect perception of our experience, but suffering is a fact of life in the realm of Assiah, at the very least. It is one of the means of education. We can transcend sorrow, but that's not the same as eliminating it.
"a "setback" is typically the result of a collision - the only crime in the universe! "setbacks" and the like only occur when you're acting out of harmony with your will. "
Agreed. But since I've yet to meet anyone who admits to living in total accord with their TW, or appears to do so, collisions occur.
93 93/93,
EM
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@Edward Mason said
"you keep shooting from the hip, without looking to take aim. "
I noticed this, too. Not only without a pause to take aim, but without proper consideration of the target. Shooting blindly, what need is there for an target? Agreeing and disagreeing with the same point in the very next breath shows one is not carefully considering any point of view but their own.
For example:
@luxinhominefactum said
"
@Redd Fezz said
" A good checklist would be:
- How many beings oppose my view?"
nonsense. that's conformity, not will. "Ye are against the people, O my chosen!" "
@luxinhominefactum said
""42. Let it be that state of manyhood bound and loathing. So with thy all; thou hast no right but to do thy will.
- Do that, and no other shall say nay.""
Bling-blong, thanks for helping me sum up my checklist of "how to know if you are deluded or not regarding your True Will."