Treating Spirits with respect.

Froclown

I am no great fan of objectivism, I am only half way through atlas Shrugged at this time.

I was trying to show that, the industrialists in that book were examples of people who know their WILL and stick to it. That WILL is "making money" though it cames in different flavors, steel, trains, oil, mines, etc. These became the almost super-humans they where by focusing all of their being on that goal. They were analogous to Nietzsche's ubermensch.

It was the majority of people who, ruined the works of the great men, by asking them to slow down, to act for the good of others, to give charity to those who have need, and ask nothing in return. In short they these were the weak whom the Thelemite is advised to stomp on and treat as the parasites they are.

A difference I see between Rand and Thelema, is that Thelema replaces the Capitalistic ideal of "making money" with the mystical notion of Union with Nuit.

This means the Thelemic ends "love under WILL" is broader than the Objectivists, one can do ones WILL, without interest in making money. Mother Teresa for example was able to express her WILL, without making money. Her WILL was perhaps misguided by religious notions, but one must admit that she put infinite energy into her work, not out of force by authority but personal conviction.

I may not agree with some one else's WILL but I respect it where I find it.

The Pure force of WILL is something to find Awe in, as one finds awe in a hurricane, even though one may be unhappy it destroyed the neighborhood.

As for Hitler, Riving the myths and culture of a people sounds like the work of an artist to me. I think Hitler was a great artist actually. And his was a force of WILL seldom matched on earth. Systematic genocide is certainly not anything to admire, but that one man could take the stage and take control over the mythic underpinnings of a whole nation, and nearly reshaping the world, all by appeals to artistry and poetry. I shall say such a man is a great adept of the arts. His ability is admirable, what he did with it is not. But, to say he did not do his WILL, and that Hitler did not have an important place in the course of History is just absurd.

My name, "Pope Froclown Von Hogwasher"

I took it as my Discordian name, mostly because it's so silly no one would ever take me an authority, thus they will not believe what I say unless they find merit in the words themselves.

but, the fool symbolism was also accounted for. The Hogwasher part is to be taken as one who attempts to clean up and clarify positions or contra-wise a spreader of lies and non-sense.

Thus a dual expression of the fool.

Edward Mason

Froclown, 93

"I was trying to show that, the industrialists in that book were examples of people who know their WILL and stick to it. That WILL is "making money" though it cames in different flavors, steel, trains, oil, mines, etc. These became the almost super-humans they where by focusing all of their being on that goal. They were analogous to Nietzsche's ubermensch. "

True Will wouldn't involve making money, mining metals, running railroads ... or conquering most of Europe. An individual person's True Will formulation would be something both wider and simpler than any of those, and the actual worldly activity would be simply a manifestation of the deeper reality. The entirety of a human life would be encompassed within True Will, so that sufferings and setbacks are included. They shape an individual's ability to express the TW. Such expression includes the total arc of life and death.

The characters in Atlas Shrugged try to reshape the entire USA, so whatever Ayn Rand protests, their intentions go far beyond their egoic needs. It's a strangely compelling read, but the ideas she espouses are dumb, and she refused to think through their contradictions. Human beings are multi-faceted, something she didn't much like admitting because it clashed with her theories.

93 93/93,

EM

Froclown

Actually If I am a follower of anyone its B.F. Skinner and Max Stirner.

I don't think there is a contradiction here, though it might seem as such.

Edward Mason

Froclown, 93,

I can see a connection, but neither of these guys was exactly fun. I always feel anyone coming at all within the outer aura of Thelema should have some warmth and mischief in them.

Chacun son guru.

93 93/93,

EM

Chris Hanlon

Dear EM,
Somehow you always say what I mean to say. My point was, yes, being a Thelemite means having ferocious life energy. Having it ignited by Crowley's visions.
In L.V.X.,
chrys333

EM said:
"I can see a connection, but neither of these guys was exactly fun. I always feel anyone coming at all within the outer aura of Thelema should have some warmth and mischief in them. "

luxinhominefactum

Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the Law

@Edward Mason said

"Froclown, 93

True Will wouldn't involve making money, mining metals, running railroads ... or conquering most of Europe."

prove it. better yet, prove that an act like that is impossible to be in harmony with the true will of any star.

"An individual person's True Will formulation would be something both wider and simpler than any of those, and the actual worldly activity would be simply a manifestation of the deeper reality. "

none can know another's course. down this road lies dogma and the dog-faced demons of orthodoxy. you're welcome to your ideas about true will - more than! however, this sort of preaching as to what Is and what is Not true will... historically speaking, these kinds of ideas are where initiation ends and worship begins.

"The entirety of a human life would be encompassed within True Will, so that sufferings and setbacks are included. "

yes, and then no.

let's see what liber AL vel Legis has to say about "suffering," sorrow and the like...

"...let Asar be with Isa, who also are one. But they are not of me. Let Asar be the adorant, Isa the sufferer..."

"9. Remember all ye that existence is pure joy; that all the sorrows are but as shadows; they pass & are done; but there is that which remains. "

"17. Hear me, ye people of sighing!
The sorrows of pain and regret
Are left to the dead and the dying,
The folk that not know me as yet."

"who sorroweth is not of us."

i could go on, but the point is that when you're "suffering" and facing "setbacks," you've lost hadit.

"
They shape an individual's ability to express the TW. Such expression includes the total arc of life and death."

actually no, they don't. a "setback" is typically the result of a collision - the only crime in the universe! "setbacks" and the like only occur when you're acting out of harmony with your will.

Love is the law, love under will

Froclown

More important, when seen in the light of the WILL, there are no set backs, because every event is beneficial. Even a seeming obstacle is an opportunity to improve ones Skills or an indication that one is veering off course and must recalibrate ones course with the WILL.

As Nietzsche explained all our sufferings are part of what makes us who we are, to deny a painful event, or to say given life to live over again one would choose not to undergo that suffering, is to say one does not like who one is.

Thus to regret any thing one has done, is to disdain oneself, and such a negative self appraisal is contrary to Thelema.

I do not think in is anymore a mark of a Thelemite that he rejoice is mad laughter and ecstatic states continuously, any more than that he mope around depressed and sorrowful. These extremes are both distractions from the True WILL.

I should think the adept thelemite would be utterly familiar with both extremes, having fully unified with both trances, and thus having conquered them each in its turn, balancing one against the other, such that the WILL can preside over the equilibrium. In this way he can allow himself to manifest that emotion that is proper to the situation and the task facing his WILL, and also in the degree that is proper. He must control not only the Quality of emotion but also its Quantity.

Keeping in mind that ability to enter into Samadhi is not run away emotion, as one can unify the ego with any concept, sorrow, joy, pain, regret, dispationate detachment, silence, noise, one can even perform Samadhi on dispersion.

Froclown

also just because by jokes may be subtle and dry, does not mean I am as serious as you may think.

I see meditation of the day, on Dec 5.

That was half way a joke. or was it. FNORD!

Edward Mason

93,

Luxinhominefactum said:

"none can know another's course. down this road lies dogma and the dog-faced demons of orthodoxy. you're welcome to your ideas about true will - more than! however, this sort of preaching as to what Is and what is Not true will... historically speaking, these kinds of ideas are where initiation ends and worship begins. "

I disagree. With different forms of information, initiation is extended. This idea that other people's opinions damage us is a bit silly. It harks back to the "You mustn't comment on Liber AL" school of thought. Protecting people from ideas is not my notion of what Thelema teaches.

"
prove it. better yet, prove that an act like that is impossible to be in harmony with the true will of any star. "

I didn't say this - you keep shooting from the hip, without looking to take aim. My point is, our ultimate spiritual goal, the True Will, might include making cash, but only as an aspect of the totality of what TW represents. The TW might (as a hypothetical example) be: "To extend my scope to the infinite" and making cash could be the expression of that on the material plane. But it almost certainly wouldn't be the core truth, the vital and essential expression of being, that is True Will.

"let's see what liber AL vel Legis has to say about "suffering," sorrow and the like... "

I know what Liber AL says. My point is that each incarnate person experiences sorrow, at least until 8=3 A.'.A.'., and (for all we know) beyond that. Sorrow might, in the final analysis, may involve an incorrect perception of our experience, but suffering is a fact of life in the realm of Assiah, at the very least. It is one of the means of education. We can transcend sorrow, but that's not the same as eliminating it.

"a "setback" is typically the result of a collision - the only crime in the universe! "setbacks" and the like only occur when you're acting out of harmony with your will. "

Agreed. But since I've yet to meet anyone who admits to living in total accord with their TW, or appears to do so, collisions occur.

93 93/93,

EM

redd fezz

@Edward Mason said

"you keep shooting from the hip, without looking to take aim. "

I noticed this, too. Not only without a pause to take aim, but without proper consideration of the target. Shooting blindly, what need is there for an target? Agreeing and disagreeing with the same point in the very next breath shows one is not carefully considering any point of view but their own.

For example:

@luxinhominefactum said

"

@Redd Fezz said

" A good checklist would be:

How many beings oppose my view?"

nonsense. that's conformity, not will. "Ye are against the people, O my chosen!" "

@luxinhominefactum said

""42. Let it be that state of manyhood bound and loathing. So with thy all; thou hast no right but to do thy will.

Do that, and no other shall say nay.""

Bling-blong, thanks for helping me sum up my checklist of "how to know if you are deluded or not regarding your True Will."

redd fezz

"One cannot do one's true will intelligently unless one knows what it is." — Aleister Crowley

luxinhominefactum

@Edward Mason said

"93,

I disagree. With different forms of information, initiation is extended. This idea that other people's opinions damage us is a bit silly. It harks back to the "You mustn't comment on Liber AL" school of thought. Protecting people from ideas is not my notion of what Thelema teaches.
"

you're misunderstanding me. opinions don't cause damage - but setting in stone what true will can and can't be Does cause dogma and orthodoxy, which is a royal pain in the ass for gnostics.

"
I didn't say this - you keep shooting from the hip, without looking to take aim. My point is, our ultimate spiritual goal, the True Will, might include making cash, but only as an aspect of the totality of what TW represents. The TW might (as a hypothetical example) be: "To extend my scope to the infinite" and making cash could be the expression of that on the material plane. But it almost certainly wouldn't be the core truth, the vital and essential expression of being, that is True Will."

what Was said is "True Will wouldn't involve making money, mining metals, running railroads ... or conquering most of Europe."

and i'm saying you can't know that for another star. if your point was, as you say, that the Goal may include these kinds of things then i agree with you - but wouldn't that "involve" making money and so on? then again, i wouldn't dream of saying that it's impossible.

"
I know what Liber AL says. My point is that each incarnate person experiences sorrow, at least until 8=3 A.'.A.'., and (for all we know) beyond that. Sorrow might, in the final analysis, may involve an incorrect perception of our experience, but suffering is a fact of life in the realm of Assiah, at the very least. It is one of the means of education. We can transcend sorrow, but that's not the same as eliminating it. "

i disagree and hold to my point on this one - there's no reason whatsoever that we can't disagree on this point, of course. that's one of the awesome things about thelema - no orthodoxy!

i would make the point that you annihilate sorrow by uniting it with it's opposite.

"
Agreed. But since I've yet to meet anyone who admits to living in total accord with their TW, or appears to do so, collisions occur.
"

yes! absolutely! that's the exact thing. however, here you're saying - if i understand you correctly - that the collisions aren't part of your true will, while in your above post you're saying quite the opposite. i won't deny you your right to contradict yourself, but it can make for confusing conversation.

now, for froclown's post...

"More important, when seen in the light of the WILL, there are no set backs, because every event is beneficial. Even a seeming obstacle is an opportunity to improve ones Skills or an indication that one is veering off course and must recalibrate ones course with the WILL. "

every event is beneficial when you're acting in harmony with your will, Yes - and i agree with you totally about obstacles as opportunity. the thing is, as edward pointed out above, the vast majority of people are not always acting in harmony with their will. those collisions Can be beneficial, if you use them (as you say) as indicators, but they can also become pointless, repetitive ordeals.

"As Nietzsche explained all our sufferings are part of what makes us who we are, to deny a painful event, or to say given life to live over again one would choose not to undergo that suffering, is to say one does not like who one is.

Thus to regret any thing one has done, is to disdain oneself, and such a negative self appraisal is contrary to Thelema."

very interesting, and i'd agree, but i get the sense that you don't think i agree with that based on my posts in this thread. why is that? please be specific - i may have been unclear or simply misunderstood

...the same with the rest of your post after that. i agree with you! we're agreeing! where's the confusion coming in?

now, redd fezz.

"I noticed this, too. Not only without a pause to take aim, but without proper consideration of the target. Shooting blindly, what need is there for an target? Agreeing and disagreeing with the same point in the very next breath shows one is not carefully considering any point of view but their own. "

ah! check out crowley's comment to that verse. one of the things he says is "so great is the power of asserting ones right that it will not long be disputed." i would add to that and say "saying nay" would imply an ability to actually Stop you, which is impossible if you're really acting in harmony with your will.

one kind of funny and enlightening thing here is that you seem to be saying liber AL vel Legis itself is contradictory from chapter to chapter. on some planes, it absolutely is.

"ye are against the people" and "let it be that state of manyhood bound and loathing" don't contradict themselves on all planes, though. "the people" can be read as the crowd in your head - the "state of manyhood," as it were.

also, i really think my point stands.

you said:

How many beings oppose my view?

and

Does it appear that I will be (successful)?

what's funny about the accusation of self-contradiction here is that my answer to point five in your list can be used just as easily to express the same idea if i address it to your first point!

as for point five, as i mentioned above, in crowley's new comment to the "against the people" verse, he talks about the people as, on one plane, "the many-headed and mutable mob which swarms in the slums of our own mind." since most of us aren't in total control of ourselves yet, the crowd in our heads will often try to convince us that acting in harmony with our wills will NOT be succesfull.

let me give an example from my own life. i'm transgendered. i used to look like a guy, but i never really was one. i was convinced for the longest time that i could Never In A Zillion Years transition and live full time as a woman. the truth was, doing that was a Huge, Massive part of my true will and i Absolutely Had To Do That before i could proceed.

every ***apparent ***odd was stacked against me, especially in my own mind. and yet! here i am!

to suceed, however, i did indeed have to set myself "against the people" both internally and externally. however, the objections didn't last long after i went ahead and did it. do you see what i mean now? or do you still think i'm contradicting myself?

as an aside, i think some of y'all have me all wrong. i'm having a great time in here! we don't need to agree on these points - i have my ideas to get across just the same as all of you. some things i've read here i agree with, some things i don't, some things i've never even considered (which is the really cool thing, i think.)

Love is the law, love under will

redd fezz

Yeah, Liber AL is read at a few levels which is why it's not a great idea to go back and forth about it. I notice a lot of people seem to take it on face value as justification for selfish behavior, somehow ignoring the bits they don't want to hear. - NOTE: I'm not accusing you of anything here - One certainly doesn't need a book to tell him it's alright to be a selfish person. But, on the other hand, some people plagued with guilt need exactly that: someone to tell them it's okay.

It's paradoxical and poetic, but it's not self-contradictory from chapter to chapter. Crowley himself noted that when he failed to follow his True Will, he ran into difficulties. If people be saying "nay" you should stop and check if you really know what the heck you're doing or if you're just mindlessly self-indulging (which is fine, but it's not True Will). Of course, Crowley did have his share of difficulties right up until the end, but I don't know what I could say about that except that the idea has been put forward by many that his entire character was meant to be evidence that "all could attain." He had his faults and maybe they were clear signs of where he veered from the path. I don't know.

You quoted from line 42 - 43, but why not 41? Is it because 41 doesn't say, "Rape your lover if it be thy will, imprison her if she would leave thee?" Taken from line 41 on, the text takes on a different flavor from than you seem to be presenting it, but either way it still says only that if you do your will that "no other shall say nay." It doesn't say your will is whatever you want and to go ahead and impose your will without thought or care for others. Crowley put Liber Al in a drawer and tried to forget about it for 3 years. His True Will was the Will of the divine, to do the will of the Secret Chiefs. He had a devil-may-care sort of personality, true, but that wasn't his Will.

Also, quoting lines related to crossing the Abyss is not a great back-up for a discussion specifically related to the Work in this world, which by its nature is relative and below the Abyss. Crowley was the one who said to come back down from the experiences and ground them in reality by analysis and introspection (Froclown's apparent specialty ). In fact, his body of work showcases his outrageously in-depth and untiring use of logic in the relative realm.

Incidentally, Goetia is "Old Aeon" as much as Hitler and terrorism are. And I don't mean to seem like I'm attacking you. No ill will here.

Edward Mason

LIHF, 93,

You said

"what Was said is "True Will wouldn't involve making money, mining metals, running railroads ... or conquering most of Europe."

and i'm saying you can't know that for another star. if your point was, as you say, that the Goal may include these kinds of things then i agree with you - but wouldn't that "involve" making money and so on? then again, i wouldn't dream of saying that it's impossible. "

My actual statement was:

"
True Will wouldn't involve making money, mining metals, running railroads ... or conquering most of Europe. An individual person's True Will formulation would be something both wider and simpler than any of those, and the actual worldly activity would be simply a manifestation of the deeper reality. "

I make a little more sense (usually) when the entire quote is cited, though I concede there's some ambiguity in how I expressed myself.

I don't see that I, or anyone here, is "setting anything in stone," beyond what is commonly accepted about the nature of True Will (its primary emanation coming out of Chokmah, or if you prefer, Atziluth; its manifestation throughout life, but specifically in one sephirah of the Tree more than others, etc.) It operates on all levels, and the things of Assiah (such as money or railroads) are hardly likely to be relevant to the TW as it is formulated higher up the scale.

"i would make the point that you annihilate sorrow by uniting it with it's opposite. "

I agree. But in the case of real sorrows - loss of a loved one, of a job, of a significant phase of life - that isn't overnight. The transcendence comes out of the learning process, not as some conscious, quickly chosen shift of attitude.

In such instances, while I accept the True Will is operating to bring this situation about, it isn't a situation that is chosen via conscious awareness and selection. There's "life as governed ultimately by the TW," which includes all that we undergo, and "life chosen via the TW", which is what we strive to attain and to live as completely as we can.

Who sorroweth is not of us, agreed, but then there are phases when we explicitly lose all conscious connection with Hadit, or with Nuit. That's the growth process, death-states alternating with life-states. In particular, the three paths of the Middle Pillar involve such conditional deaths. Crowley's own career provides ample examples. I suggest that the Thelemic approach is based, above all, on awareness and understanding of all factors in life.

93 93/93,

EM

luxinhominefactum

Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the Law

@redd fezz said

"You quoted from line 42 - 43, but why not 41? Is it because 41 doesn't say, "Rape your lover if it be thy will, imprison her if she would leave thee?" Taken from line 41 on, the text takes on a different flavor from than you seem to be presenting it, but either way it still says only that if you do your will that "no other shall say nay." It doesn't say your will is whatever you want and to go ahead and impose your will without thought or care for others. "

well, we were talking about Appearances, and i didn't really need that line to make my point.

however, since you bring it up, let's see.

does it appear that i'll succeed (or something like that)

"41. The word of Sin is Restriction. O man! refuse not thy wife, if she will! O lover, if thou wilt, depart! There is no bond that can unite the divided but love: all else is a curse. Accursed! Accursed be it to the aeons! Hell.

Let it be that state of manyhood bound and loathing. So with thy all; thou hast no right but to do thy will.
Do that, and no other shall say nay."

it's really the same point i was making. it may appear that the way to success in love is to bind your lover in some way, but that won't work. when you bind, you restrict and keep things from annihilating. if you're doing your will, this isn't an issue.

since love under will is the law, love is the example used. it doesn't have to just be love as in people who are having sex and stuff - it's any kind of union. of course, we as primates have a tendency to bind what the rest of the world thinks of as love, too, so the example holds on almost all planes.

and no, it doesn't say your will is whatever you want, and neither did i!

however, i would say that a thought or care for others is immaterial. i don't really have to worry about what other people are up to. all i need to be concerned with in that regard is keeping those people who are part of my khu under will - as they are a part of me, it's on Me to keep that under control - which brings me right back to my original point about the goetic spirits, by the way.

Love is the law, love under will

Uni_Verse

I cannot agree with this list...

@Redd Fezz said

"
A good checklist would be:

How many beings oppose my view?
How logical is that opposition?
Does it appear I am right?
Am I successful?
Does it appear I will be?
"
You are not going to do your Will because others oppose you?
You are not going to do your Will because it is not logical?
You are not going to do your Will because you are not right?
The only proof.
See 4.

Edit:
As for Spirits and their treatment, I like to follow the golden rule:
Do unto others as you would have done unto you!

Heru

@Uni_Verse said

"As for Spirits and their treatment, I like to follow the golden rule:
Do unto others as you would have done unto you!"

Isn't that the rule that Crowley labeled the most stupid ever invented?

luxinhominefactum

Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the Law

@Her said

"
@Uni_Verse said
"As for Spirits and their treatment, I like to follow the golden rule:
Do unto others as you would have done unto you!"

Isn't that the rule that Crowley labeled the most stupid ever invented? "

i'm not sure but i'd love to see the reference!

for my forty and found i'd prefer not to be summoned in a triangle, but that's just me...

well, okay, maybe once or twice just to see what it's like

Love is the law, love under will

gmugmble

@luxinhominefactum said

"i'm not sure but i'd love to see the reference!"

In the New Comment, for I:31, "The Golden Rule is silly. If Lord Alfred Douglas (for example) did to others what he would like them to do to him, many would resent his action."

Heru

@luxinhominefactum said

"i'm not sure but i'd love to see the reference!"

I misquoted. It's "foolish" not "stupid".

From the The Djeridensis Working: (emphasis added)

"Compassion, the noblest virtue of the Buddhist, is damned outright by Aiwass. To “suffer with” some other being is clearly to cease to be oneself, to wander from one’s Way. It always implies error, no Point-of-View being the same as any other: and in Kings—leaders and rulers of men—such error is a vice. For it leads straight to the most foolish Rule ever laid down, “Do unto others as you would that they should do unto you.”"