A qustion about the LBRP!
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MAN .. i just spent a half hour typing out a novel to this.. and the browser ate it b/c it said i wasn't logged in.. when i was.. sigh
basically.. you'll find a lot of times that your arguing semantics coming from a LHP background when your talking to Thelemites.. its taken me two years to understand the differences in definitions and terminology.
That being said, I think when Grant and most LHP orders talk about the Qlippoth they are really refering to the "dark side of the sephiroth" rather than the actual Qlippoth which is rather radioactive. The dark side of the Sephiroth is always there, day tree or not.
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@SetiDraconis said
"I got to say jim I didnt expect to be attackted like that with harsh words and being from a teacher as well...and to be honest I was really enjoying learning from you untell we became at odds."
I'm sorry you felt attacked. It wasn't my intention to attack you.
"I find it funny thou with those who attack Intiates of the LHP all most all ways no one ever does there home work on it but a very few!"
I simply responded to your presentation of yourself. I'm taking your description of yourself and your activities at face value, trusting your description of them.
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Jonathan you hit it on the head my freind thank you..sorry to hear what happened and man ive had that happen a few times sucks.
but you hit it on the head on explaining it because the parts of the Qlippoth are unworkable as I understand it and no one would want to work this any way,there is no gain.
Anchorite..you are very right with what you saying just in meaning your self but jim does reprasent half the Thelemites ive meet.
Perhaps he was mad becasuse I was picking his brain for some insight
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I doubt he was mad because you wanted information, it seemed rather that you were getting a bit upset b/c you were looking for some confirmation to a previous idea or thought and most likely due to different definitions to all this stuff he not only didn't agree, but highly disagreed.
I can't talk for Jim, but to most classical hermeticists and kabbalists, if you tell them your working both the qlippoth and the sephiroth at the same time as you go up the tree.. its kinda like saying..
yeah i'm invoking the most nastiest and dangerous alien/radioactive forces i possibly can.. while doing a daily LBRP and meditating a bit for balance! oh and no, i don't have a teacher who can actually work with me in person.. just over email and the like.
that MAY NOT be what your doing or talking about, matter of fact I REALLY don't think it is.. but thats how it sounds at face value to most traditional Thelemites.
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Yeah back on page one of this page youll find what was said and it was harsh but no worrys im not mad over it any more.
I mean im more than sure there is a diffrance in opion with my practice out lined by the Dragon Rouge and most Thelemites probley have diffrant magickal goals minus you john and others.
But actully out of any one ive meet in Thelema you have been the most helpfull BTW
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@SetiDraconis said
"Anchorite..you are very right with what you saying just in meaning your self but jim does reprasent half the Thelemites ive meet.
Perhaps he was mad becasuse I was picking his brain for some insight
"93
Set-
Oh I see, their attitudes with regards to the specific issues at hand.
Yes, probably. The thing is not many Adepts have worked on any synthesis of the terms involved since 777 , for instance I know least 3 definitions of Left hand path and of course they vary greatly. I'm sure others know more.
I'm guessing these discussions will continue making slow headway untill someone works out a new generally agreed upon framework and syntax for these loaded terms.
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To clear up any confusion here is a flawless definition of the Left Hand Path out lined by the Dragon Rouge.
The philosophy of Dragon Rouge consists of the left hand path and its ideology. The left hand path is based on a philosophy which defines two main spiritual paths. One is the right hand path. It has influenced most forms of religion and mass movements. Its method is the light magic and its goal is the annihilation of the individual and to become one with God. The other path is the left hand path. It denotes the unique, the deviant and the exclusive. Its method is the dark magic and antinomianism (to go against the grain). The dark magical goal is to become a god.The left hand path and dark magic is not a path of salvation that anyone can accomplish. For most people the established religions are more suitable. The left hand path is a demanding path that takes for granted that the adept is prepared to be disciplined, patient, responsible and courageous. We are strongly dissuading psychically unstable persons from taking this path. The same goes for people who are interpreting the philosophy as if we are now already gods and able to do our free will. To reach a free will and thus become like a god is a goal. We are not gods. We can become gods. In this aspect Dragon Rouge differs from many esoterists, new age ideologists and satanists who believe that we are already gods and do just have to realize it. We believe that we are carrying the divine inside us like a potential, but that we can only awake and develop this side through hard initiatoric training.
Man can pass through two births. In connection with the first birth we become individuals in relation to the mother. We are born physically. The light religions are preaching a return to the child state where one gives up freedom, will and responsibility to gain safety. Man can pass through another birth. In connection with his one we become individuals in relation to existence. We are leaving a life predetermined by outer conditions and are reaching a free will. Instead of being creations we become creators. Initiation rites among shamans, witches and magical societies have through the ages been a path to this second birth. The goal of the initiatoric magic of Dragon Rouge is a second birth and a self creation process that leads to the divinity of the individual.
So my main thing is from the above, is there aspects of Thelema and if ones Will was of this and was a Thelemanite would they be shunned or embraced?
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Wouldn't be easy to see what's in those shadows by turning the lights on?
I'm half-joking... since I've being doing a lot of work with the shadow aspect of myself and in my artwork...
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"
to become one with God
""
to become a god
"Those two terms appear to be deceptively similar.
Are you not God if you are one with God?
Otherwise, you are just god... without the capital!
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93 Seti
From what I can see here I do not feel there is any reason for a Thelemite to be shunned whatsoever if he chooses the DragonRouge path. It may not be how Jim's Temple Teaches, but if it eventually leads to one doing ones will then surely just the methodology and grade system differs. After all, Ipsissimus is Ipsissimus no matter what system you employ to reach it. I'm sure eventually, if both systems work you'll get to the same place in the end.
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SetiDraconis, 93,
" The light religions are preaching a return to the child state where one gives up freedom, will and responsibility to gain safety."
That's hardly a definition of Thelemic attitudes. I don't see how it applies here.
"So my main thing is from the above, is there aspects of Thelema and if ones Will was of this and was a Thelemanite would they be shunned or embraced?"
Being shunned or embraced isn't the point with Thelema. It's not the Iowa Primary; it's about realizing the infinite (Nuit) from a particular standpoint (Hadit). So, becoming "a" god might be an intermediate state in that process, but it can hardly be the final realization. Divinity doesn't, so far as I understand it, place such limitations on itself.
93 93/93,
EM
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@SetiDraconis said
"The dark magical goal is to become a god."
The problem with setting a goal like this is that it's saying you will attain to the state of what would be called a demi-god then stop and go no further.
I've recently been reading some of Sir John Woodroffe's tantric text translations and there is mention in them of people attaining a certain level of adepthood who would after death be reincarnated as demi-gods. But these people have obviously not achieved liberation and were in all likeliness aiming higher than this.
It seems to me like the dark magic path is the same path everyone else is on, except you intend to stop short of the goal.
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I understand the idea and goal of practice raiseing to what some feel is the very top...but at this point instead of becomeing one with the univese at this pivital moment,we become a god!
One is not below the other or what not it just is what it is"not under or above the other" as I see it.
Anchorite wrote,
After all, Ipsissimus is Ipsissimus no matter what system you employ to reach it. I'm sure eventually, if both systems work you'll get to the same place in the end.
93Very well said.
And keep in mind I know the Dragon Rouge or any other form of the LHP I can only say what I feel works for and more important becasuse many forms of magick work is what is right for me..as aspect of my will.
But I think in Thelema there are some of the same goals just a lack of some of the Qlippothic workings on some levels...and I dont mean they left over radioactive/harsh energy forms but some thing else workable and buildable..
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I was writing a long answer to this and then hit a wrong mouse button and lost it all
But I can summarize it in a few sentences, I guess, and spare you the fine points: Anytime I see a dualistic, A vs. B distinction like this, I am suspicious. In examining your definitions, you're dividing work and orders and spiritual aspiration into A vs. B (LHP vs. RHP) camps, you are citing an arbitrary division that just doesn't exist. People move back and forth across those boundaries all of the time. People whose work and identification is in what you are calling RHP often are the kind of people you're talking about under LHP. Most of the standard descriptions you are giving under LHP are basic p.o.v., teachings, philosophies, and approaches of groups you are likely lumping under RHP.
There likely are differences of technique and method, but you haven't addressed those. For the things you have addressed, the line of distinction just isn't there. Most people, over the course of their training and years of aspiration, wander back and forth across those "boundaries" all the time (except posers, of course, but neither of us appears to be interested in posers).
@SetiDraconis said
"So my main thing is from the above, is there aspects of Thelema and if ones Will was of this and was a Thelemanite would they be shunned or embraced?"
Whatever one's True Will is would be embraced. (Though the person themselves might not be embraced! You might hear an occasional, "Do what thou wilt! Just not in my house!")
But a bigger point for me is that you are drawing false distinctions to raise a question that then becomes moot.
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@SetiDraconis said
"But I think in Thelema there are some of the same goals just a lack of some of the Qlippothic workings on some levels...and I dont mean they left over radioactive/harsh energy forms but some thing else workable and buildable.."
So screw all the fine rhetoric, at base it's all about technique, eh?
I play in the road! I cross the street without letting the light be an ultimate determinant. But I don't let children do either of those things under my watch.
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@Jim Eshelman said
"Most of the standard descriptions you are giving under LHP are basic p.o.v., teachings, philosophies, and approaches of groups you are likely lumping under RHP."
You are right on this Jim the two are very much alike...I talked with some freinds last night in the TOT and A A for some hours about all this and I belive the last part of this thread is my lack in abilty to express my self on my points becasuse im some what comeing from a diffrant tradtion and Thelema all most has its own vocabulary and meaning to things there was much confusion.
This is part of it...but at hand the goals are some what the same and untell ive reached adepthood I wont speak on such things..but I will keep on the path with purseing my will,which I have a glimse of,perhaps my new home will be in Thelema.
I hope you understand alot of my qustions to you have been a accumulation of years of frustration on finding out if this is right for me...my first experance with the Thelesis Oasis, OTO in Philadephia was not helpfull becasue there not many who could help becasuse some seemed to be still helping them selves and such.
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OK I have to correct myself here. I must have been outta my freaking skull. DO NOT USE THE FOUR CROWN PRINCES OF HELL IN THE LBRP!
Sorry about that. -
93 Jim,
So in reference to the four great princes of hell, you are indeed speaking of the Abra-melin working, yes? Where once you have attained Knowledge and Conversation with your H.G.A. , immediately after, you do utilize the four great princes.
The same could be achieved by Liber Samekh as well yes?
We are speaking of 'Inner workings' in the achievement of the grade of 5=6, or the 'Christing point' where one achieves the knowledge and conversation of their H.G.A. (Tiphareth), or are we speaking of 'Outer' initiations conferred?
Just a question...Or two:-)
93 93/93.'.
Kohen ha-Gadhol
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@Kohen ha-Gadhol said
"So in reference to the four great princes of hell, you are indeed speaking of the Abra-melin working, yes?"
Yes. That's the most 'famous' place that they appear as such.
"Where once you have attained Knowledge and Conversation with your H.G.A. , immediately after, you do utilize the four great princes.
The same could be achieved by Liber Samekh as well yes?"
I don't know what you mean by "the same." Do you mean tht Liber Samekh might be a tool for attaining to the K&C of the HGA? Of course it may. Or do you mean that something in Liber Samekh substitutes for the summoning of the Four Great Princes? Thats an interesting question. I can see how some of what is accomplished might be thus done. It does seem to me that the main purposes aren't accomplished, though. (But I'm hesitant to say so definitively, because this is one of the most intimate of dealings between the Angel and the Adept. The Path likely will be entirely clear after the K&C is attained and the Angel's counsel is most immediately at hand.)
"We are speaking of 'Inner workings' in the achievement of the grade of 5=6, or the 'Christing point' where one achieves the knowledge and conversation of their H.G.A. (Tiphareth), or are we speaking of 'Outer' initiations conferred?"
I've lost the flow of the conversation here. I think what you're asking, though, is answered by sayng that - both what Abramelin's disciple wrote and what I've written refer to what, in A.'.A.'. language, would be Adeptus Minor Within.
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@Jim Eshelman said
"So, they are present primarily as guardians. But, as with most details of the Pentagram Ritual (which is still the single most elegant and sophisticated ritual known to me), other things happen and are awakened when they are employed as specified in the ritual. (I leave these to each practitioner to discover.)"
Regarding the LBRP, I’ve had the following happen to me twice and I would appreciate receiving feedback. It seems that regular practise of the LBRP is initially good, I feel energized, the sense of the material plane lessens and sensation of space increases, things “happen” more quickly, but at a certain point (usually after several months) something goes terribly wrong. The disaster always strikes through friends or people I come in contact with.
In both episodes, right before everything goes wrong, I feel like I am “on stage” and everyone is aware of me. My only explanation is that my aura is evoking alters in my friends (who are unaware of my practices) or astral entities are acting through them. The latest incident felt like finding myself in a zombie film where the living dead were coming after me.
I should also mention that I live in a European city with a reputation for its volatile magickal egregore, which may be playing a role.
My question: does regular practise of the LBRP heightens one’s sense of paranoia or attract malevolent astral entities? How does one deal with that feeling that everyone is suddenly "out to get you"?