A qustion about the LBRP!
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Most Thelemic tradition embrace tantric ideas. The problem is there are multiple ways of definining LHP. You label yourself attracted to the "darker" forces yet you label the LHP that you follow as the Tantric type. When Crowley criticized the LHP, he did it in the idea of those absorbed in themself and drawn to the "dark side of the force" so to speak. What is "dark" to you? Tantra? If so, then Thelema is "dark". As Jim said, dealing with the Qlippoth is going backwards to a primal state. That's the problem and why it's not natural - it's backwards.
As a note, spelling is a direct reflection on ones education which is deeply entwined with ones intelligence. On a web forum, written communication is the medium.
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@SetiDraconis said
"Yes Jim my spelling sucks but dont let it reflect my intelligence."
Not intelligence - but certainly conscientiousness and care. And when it comes to magick, conscientiousness and care matter a lot!
"and if you have not practiced dealing with the darker currents how can you speak on them other being in only theory."
What leads you to think I haven't? I suspect I know them far better than you. They just aren't for beginners.
"I have done my best to understand Thelema but I think perhaps ive came to the realization that if my true will or deep aspects of my true will is off these darker primal forces..why isnt my Will respected."
It is, of course. But first, there is the question of whether you truly know your Will. (I'm not saying you don't, BTW.)
"actully it was nice to have some one willing to answer some qusitions for me to be honest."
Actually, that's all I was trying to do - be very candid and honest.
"I feel sorry for any one in your school jim that perhaps finds there true will to be some one who works with the Darker currents vs the archangles or what not becasue im sure they would be told there doing the wrong thing and its a illsuion of there will or some thing to that affect."
Then they wouldn't stay, would they? That's the key, ultimately: Whether a person feels a "match" with where he or she is working.
But I also think that you don't yet know what is light and what is dark. You have labels for things but I don't honestly think you yet know what those really mean. It would be a shame if the labels got in the way of actually understanding what we're both talking about, eh?
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As far as trying to label what is "Dark" and what is "light" that had been such a complex thing to try and explain as well as so many others.
So im on the verge of trying ot give up my point..espically after what you said to me and to be honest jim, I do have a Idea of my true "Will" in that I know what direction I need to be going and it is focused with the Qliphothic tree and the Draconian current..but still with love and balance.
I think most who view people from my magickal tradtion and current see us as unstable and this is true with only "some" as its true with others in Thelema as well.
Infact some with in the OTO and TOT I would not allow get close to me magically eather to be very honest,weather for a lack of mental balanced[which we all struggle with to a point] or for the overage of right hand path energy.
This type of "Draconian" calling I feel can only be felt by those who are really of this and in my case born into it from the stand point of my higher self is conected with this force.
Understanding this and imbraceing this has not been easy and its been hard but to say what you said to me only proves that Thelema in some respcets as it exist today is not for me,escically there more I read up on what is tought as being LHP in Thelema vs what really is LHP of the old and today!
Nor does it cater to the Will of every one as it claims[and I mean will being from a occult stand point not a dumb ass]
to honest seeking to explore only the tree of life only and some aspects of the Qliphoth in my opinion is not a full understanding of the universe..or at least enoghf to attack it like such with those who practice it.
So in the end jim with the attacks and some of the diffrant theorys on the LHP from a Thelemic stand point[ which is wrong on some points badly] I would say its not for me..or at least not from the stand point of what it is today...this is not true for with Grant however[I know he is not perfect up and down with his teachings but he is on to some thing and achived some things]
Ive had a few people even tell me that if Crowley was alive today they dont think he would be pleased with modern thelema..for some reason and to be honest only going off some Intiatuion I feel this to be true.So jim becasue you seem to repasent most Thelemintes ive meet and your a teacher im going to base my decsion some what based on you as well as other things.
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@SetiDraconis said
"So jim becasue you seem to repasent most Thelemintes ive meet and your a teacher im going to base my decsion some what based on you as well as other things."
LOL, that's probably not fair to everyone else but, y'know, whatever.
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I was thinking about that actuly after I left for work today and I do simi take that back becasue I know some Thelemites that are alot more open to the Draconian current [and practice it even]or what ever you tidal you want to call that force.
And I am directly refearing to Intiates in the TOT!
I got to say jim I didnt expect to be attackted like that with harsh words and being from a teacher as well...and to be honest I was really enjoying learning from you untell we became at odds.
I find it funny thou with those who attack Intiates of the LHP all most all ways no one ever does there home work on it but a very few!
We may as well have been argueing about diffrant[ IE definition] things as far as we know being that we may have diffrant ideas about it as well as the lack to express myself on paper here[over the web]
But like another Intiate of Dragon Rouge said Crowleys insight on the LHP is basising what a jew is from the nazis compared to what a jew really is.
I still hold much regard to Crowley thou make no mistake
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93
Set, a question if you don't mind.
How can anyone represent Thelemites?
Really, think on it.
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MAN .. i just spent a half hour typing out a novel to this.. and the browser ate it b/c it said i wasn't logged in.. when i was.. sigh
basically.. you'll find a lot of times that your arguing semantics coming from a LHP background when your talking to Thelemites.. its taken me two years to understand the differences in definitions and terminology.
That being said, I think when Grant and most LHP orders talk about the Qlippoth they are really refering to the "dark side of the sephiroth" rather than the actual Qlippoth which is rather radioactive. The dark side of the Sephiroth is always there, day tree or not.
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@SetiDraconis said
"I got to say jim I didnt expect to be attackted like that with harsh words and being from a teacher as well...and to be honest I was really enjoying learning from you untell we became at odds."
I'm sorry you felt attacked. It wasn't my intention to attack you.
"I find it funny thou with those who attack Intiates of the LHP all most all ways no one ever does there home work on it but a very few!"
I simply responded to your presentation of yourself. I'm taking your description of yourself and your activities at face value, trusting your description of them.
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Jonathan you hit it on the head my freind thank you..sorry to hear what happened and man ive had that happen a few times sucks.
but you hit it on the head on explaining it because the parts of the Qlippoth are unworkable as I understand it and no one would want to work this any way,there is no gain.
Anchorite..you are very right with what you saying just in meaning your self but jim does reprasent half the Thelemites ive meet.
Perhaps he was mad becasuse I was picking his brain for some insight
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I doubt he was mad because you wanted information, it seemed rather that you were getting a bit upset b/c you were looking for some confirmation to a previous idea or thought and most likely due to different definitions to all this stuff he not only didn't agree, but highly disagreed.
I can't talk for Jim, but to most classical hermeticists and kabbalists, if you tell them your working both the qlippoth and the sephiroth at the same time as you go up the tree.. its kinda like saying..
yeah i'm invoking the most nastiest and dangerous alien/radioactive forces i possibly can.. while doing a daily LBRP and meditating a bit for balance! oh and no, i don't have a teacher who can actually work with me in person.. just over email and the like.
that MAY NOT be what your doing or talking about, matter of fact I REALLY don't think it is.. but thats how it sounds at face value to most traditional Thelemites.
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Yeah back on page one of this page youll find what was said and it was harsh but no worrys im not mad over it any more.
I mean im more than sure there is a diffrance in opion with my practice out lined by the Dragon Rouge and most Thelemites probley have diffrant magickal goals minus you john and others.
But actully out of any one ive meet in Thelema you have been the most helpfull BTW
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@SetiDraconis said
"Anchorite..you are very right with what you saying just in meaning your self but jim does reprasent half the Thelemites ive meet.
Perhaps he was mad becasuse I was picking his brain for some insight
"93
Set-
Oh I see, their attitudes with regards to the specific issues at hand.
Yes, probably. The thing is not many Adepts have worked on any synthesis of the terms involved since 777 , for instance I know least 3 definitions of Left hand path and of course they vary greatly. I'm sure others know more.
I'm guessing these discussions will continue making slow headway untill someone works out a new generally agreed upon framework and syntax for these loaded terms.
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To clear up any confusion here is a flawless definition of the Left Hand Path out lined by the Dragon Rouge.
The philosophy of Dragon Rouge consists of the left hand path and its ideology. The left hand path is based on a philosophy which defines two main spiritual paths. One is the right hand path. It has influenced most forms of religion and mass movements. Its method is the light magic and its goal is the annihilation of the individual and to become one with God. The other path is the left hand path. It denotes the unique, the deviant and the exclusive. Its method is the dark magic and antinomianism (to go against the grain). The dark magical goal is to become a god.The left hand path and dark magic is not a path of salvation that anyone can accomplish. For most people the established religions are more suitable. The left hand path is a demanding path that takes for granted that the adept is prepared to be disciplined, patient, responsible and courageous. We are strongly dissuading psychically unstable persons from taking this path. The same goes for people who are interpreting the philosophy as if we are now already gods and able to do our free will. To reach a free will and thus become like a god is a goal. We are not gods. We can become gods. In this aspect Dragon Rouge differs from many esoterists, new age ideologists and satanists who believe that we are already gods and do just have to realize it. We believe that we are carrying the divine inside us like a potential, but that we can only awake and develop this side through hard initiatoric training.
Man can pass through two births. In connection with the first birth we become individuals in relation to the mother. We are born physically. The light religions are preaching a return to the child state where one gives up freedom, will and responsibility to gain safety. Man can pass through another birth. In connection with his one we become individuals in relation to existence. We are leaving a life predetermined by outer conditions and are reaching a free will. Instead of being creations we become creators. Initiation rites among shamans, witches and magical societies have through the ages been a path to this second birth. The goal of the initiatoric magic of Dragon Rouge is a second birth and a self creation process that leads to the divinity of the individual.
So my main thing is from the above, is there aspects of Thelema and if ones Will was of this and was a Thelemanite would they be shunned or embraced?
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Wouldn't be easy to see what's in those shadows by turning the lights on?
I'm half-joking... since I've being doing a lot of work with the shadow aspect of myself and in my artwork...
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"
to become one with God
""
to become a god
"Those two terms appear to be deceptively similar.
Are you not God if you are one with God?
Otherwise, you are just god... without the capital!
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93 Seti
From what I can see here I do not feel there is any reason for a Thelemite to be shunned whatsoever if he chooses the DragonRouge path. It may not be how Jim's Temple Teaches, but if it eventually leads to one doing ones will then surely just the methodology and grade system differs. After all, Ipsissimus is Ipsissimus no matter what system you employ to reach it. I'm sure eventually, if both systems work you'll get to the same place in the end.
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SetiDraconis, 93,
" The light religions are preaching a return to the child state where one gives up freedom, will and responsibility to gain safety."
That's hardly a definition of Thelemic attitudes. I don't see how it applies here.
"So my main thing is from the above, is there aspects of Thelema and if ones Will was of this and was a Thelemanite would they be shunned or embraced?"
Being shunned or embraced isn't the point with Thelema. It's not the Iowa Primary; it's about realizing the infinite (Nuit) from a particular standpoint (Hadit). So, becoming "a" god might be an intermediate state in that process, but it can hardly be the final realization. Divinity doesn't, so far as I understand it, place such limitations on itself.
93 93/93,
EM
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@SetiDraconis said
"The dark magical goal is to become a god."
The problem with setting a goal like this is that it's saying you will attain to the state of what would be called a demi-god then stop and go no further.
I've recently been reading some of Sir John Woodroffe's tantric text translations and there is mention in them of people attaining a certain level of adepthood who would after death be reincarnated as demi-gods. But these people have obviously not achieved liberation and were in all likeliness aiming higher than this.
It seems to me like the dark magic path is the same path everyone else is on, except you intend to stop short of the goal.
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I understand the idea and goal of practice raiseing to what some feel is the very top...but at this point instead of becomeing one with the univese at this pivital moment,we become a god!
One is not below the other or what not it just is what it is"not under or above the other" as I see it.
Anchorite wrote,
After all, Ipsissimus is Ipsissimus no matter what system you employ to reach it. I'm sure eventually, if both systems work you'll get to the same place in the end.
93Very well said.
And keep in mind I know the Dragon Rouge or any other form of the LHP I can only say what I feel works for and more important becasuse many forms of magick work is what is right for me..as aspect of my will.
But I think in Thelema there are some of the same goals just a lack of some of the Qlippothic workings on some levels...and I dont mean they left over radioactive/harsh energy forms but some thing else workable and buildable..
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I was writing a long answer to this and then hit a wrong mouse button and lost it all
But I can summarize it in a few sentences, I guess, and spare you the fine points: Anytime I see a dualistic, A vs. B distinction like this, I am suspicious. In examining your definitions, you're dividing work and orders and spiritual aspiration into A vs. B (LHP vs. RHP) camps, you are citing an arbitrary division that just doesn't exist. People move back and forth across those boundaries all of the time. People whose work and identification is in what you are calling RHP often are the kind of people you're talking about under LHP. Most of the standard descriptions you are giving under LHP are basic p.o.v., teachings, philosophies, and approaches of groups you are likely lumping under RHP.
There likely are differences of technique and method, but you haven't addressed those. For the things you have addressed, the line of distinction just isn't there. Most people, over the course of their training and years of aspiration, wander back and forth across those "boundaries" all the time (except posers, of course, but neither of us appears to be interested in posers).
@SetiDraconis said
"So my main thing is from the above, is there aspects of Thelema and if ones Will was of this and was a Thelemanite would they be shunned or embraced?"
Whatever one's True Will is would be embraced. (Though the person themselves might not be embraced! You might hear an occasional, "Do what thou wilt! Just not in my house!")
But a bigger point for me is that you are drawing false distinctions to raise a question that then becomes moot.