Concers about A.'.A.'. lineages
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Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the law.
I desire studentship within the A.'.A.'. because I believe that I do not currently have the ability to initiate myself beyond a certain level. I require experienced, objective feedback. Now, I understand that there are several different lineages of the A.'.A.'., and the general response to the question "which one is the best one to join?" is "by their fruits shall ye know them."
I would consider the fruits of the A.'.A.'. to be the adepts it produces. This being the case, I have tasted only of the fruits of two particular lineages: Estai's A.'.A.'., and Hymenaeus Alpha's A.'.A.'.. From my experience, the fruits of both trees seem to be equally sweet. And so my question still remains, which one shall I choose? From reading Jim's book, "The Mystical & Magical System of the A.'.A.'.", I gather that there are some minor difference between the way these two lineages operate, but they are minor enough that neither seems obviously better than the other.
So, I shift my criteria of choice: which lineage would be more convenient to join? My situation is this: I live in Toronto, Ontario. I will probably be living here for at least another year and a half, at which point, I will either move to Nova Scotia, or Oregon. Traveling long distances (over 500 miles) for initiations is something I would rather avoid (with the global oil situation, cost of transportation is becoming exorbitantly expensive, and may become prohibitively so within 5 years). So my choice of lineage comes down to the question of which one has tendrils in the areas I'm likely to be living in. Which one has initiation sites in Toronto? Nova Scotia? Oregon? Or nearby those locations?
I suppose if all things were equal, I would choose Estai's lineage because its structure of requirements and initiations seems slightly more flexible than that of the other. Plus, McMurtry's lineage isn't even accepting applications right now.
Anyway, thoughts?
Love is the law, love under will.
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I suggest reading 'Commentaries on the Holy books' and other papers.
This will explain who one can get to the grade of 5=6.The Vision and the Voice is the key to going further in the A.'.A.'.
As far as Lineage is concerned, I feel that the A.'. A.'. is an Inner work.
Not an outer conference of initiations.93 93/93.'.
Kohen ha-Gadhol
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@Nudor said
"This should answer your question:
www.thelema.org/temple_of_thelema/locations.html"Thanks for the link. This is something I've investigated. I may yet apply for a 0=0 there to see what they're all about. Unfortunately, the Toronto Pronaos does not perform initiations- yet. Another issue is that my association with ToT may only last as long as I am living in Toronto, and I'm looking for something that lasts... a lifetime...
@Kohen ha-Gadhol said
"As far as Lineage is concerned, I feel that the A.'. A.'. is an Inner work. Not an outer conference of initiations."
I would say that the A.'.A.'. is an(/several) organization(s) committed to assisting members with their inner work. I am not in the A.'.A.'., yet my inner work has already begun. I feel that I require some objective assistance, which is why I am reaching out to one or another of these initiating organizations called A.'.A.'.. Unfortunately, this means I must decide which address to eventually write to- which is what I am trying to figure out.
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Saintbryan, 93,
You wrote:
"Unfortunately, the Toronto Pronaos does not perform initiations- yet. Another issue is that my association with ToT may only last as long as I am living in Toronto, and I'm looking for something that lasts... a lifetime... "
A Pronaos of the Temple of Thelema, such as that in Toronto, can <i>arrange</i> for initiation into the T.'.O.'.T.'. , provided the candidate meets the relevant criteria. Also, people often remain active members of the order without living in a city that has an active group.
Completing the T.'.O.'.T.'. curriculum is one gateway to the Soror Estai lineage of the A.'.A.'. .
93 93/93,
Edward Mason
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the one i wrote to is the one whose address is listed in Book IV, Gems From The Equinox, and other A'A' publications.
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@daredevil92103 said
"the one i wrote to is the one whose address is listed in Book IV, Gems From The Equinox, and other A'A' publications."
We have no connection to them.
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Jim, i mean no offense, but why?
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i have the utmost respect for u and all the answers u have given.
and it doesnt really matter to me that u arent affiliated with them, but on all the publications of the A' A' i have read, it has the O.T.O. address, and then it has the A' A' address.
i figured if they are the ones publishing the A' A' stuff then they must be the real one.
of course i want to find out as much as possible about everything i can and now u have my interested in why no affiliation. -
From helema.org/aa/index.html -
"Since the death of Aleister Crowley in 1947 there have been no universal Chiefs of the A.'.A.'.. Karl Germer (S.'.H.'. Frater Saturnus, 8=3), was the senior living A.'.A.'. member at Crowley's death, and many turned to him for guidance; but he never took up the mantle of governance of the Order. After Germer's death, no single person emerged visibly as a central guiding figure.
Yet the Order itself has continued, according to its original plan whereby a member of sufficient Grade may admit others to the chain.
Various lineages have survived. Claims are periodically encountered that one individual or another is an authentic link to A.'.A.'.. Some of these claims are quite real; some are honest mistakes; and some are fraudulent. It is not our present purpose to play arbiter to these claims, to upraise one or knock down another. It is a universal truth of Initiation that each student, at each step along the way, gets the teacher he or she "deserves," based on the real maturity and needs of the soul; and that while sometimes spiritual growth is fostered by finding the BEST teacher, at other times it is best fostered by lessons of discrimination taught in the School of Hard Knocks.
In this matter we give but one sage piece of advice: "By their fruits shall ye know them!" The Works of the Adept, the fruits of his or her garden, are the signs of his or her attainment."
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i agree totally with that statement, Jim.
i just was wondering if there was a specific reason i should be aware of, or just a matter of choice, or where one was led. that's all.
the way i see it we are all brothers and sisters with the same aims. -
The above is the only public statement we make on the issue of variant lineages.
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i thought that was what it was.
i figured it was your way of answering without throwing anything in that may reflect one way or another on that branch of the A' A'.
very much appreciated and although you hav my curiosity up and wondering, i know that i was given the answer i needed.
i am no judge. i believe all paths are beneficial if done sincerely and with ones whole being. as always, Jim, ur comments are helpful more than know. -
FYI, at the bottom of the Wikipedia page on the A.'.A.'. there is a list of URLs that link to the various lineages. I'm pretty sure the one with the contact address in the OTO publications is the one listed as "Motta via J. Daniel Gunther."
By their websites shall ye know them...
Steve
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Steven,
very interesting piece of info i had no idea about.
much thanks, and i will have to look into this one further.
fraternally. -
checked into it a little, still a legit lineage tho.
does seem to be some things i need to look into more.
i know u werent implying anything negative, just giving me a heads-up.
thanks again steve.
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i agree, sethur.
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93,
Sethur wrote:
"I wonder if Buddha or Lao Tze had a "correct lineage"......... "
Lao Tze is hard to pin down, since we have few facts about him, but Siddhartha Gautama was initiated by several teachers, and then did years of advanced practices, according to all accepted versions of his history.
I also think that there is always a further initiator involved at even the highest stages: just not necessarily a being that's still incarnate, or waving physical wands or scepters over the candidate.
I've always had a problem with the notion of self-initiation. Prince Siddhartha could not have produced the Buddha - he could only have prompted himself to go forth and seek. It was Bodhi (or Bodhisattvas) that turned him into the Buddha.93 93/93,
EM
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personally i think our HGA always leads us where we need to be, and we all have many ppl we learn from. some of these are not in physical bodies. i have no problem with self-initiation, i just dont think that one can do so and lay claim to any degrees not bestowed on you from a person in the group with the authority to do it bestowing that degree on you. i mean the buddha came to his realization after trying many things and meeting many ppl. i'm just babbling though, i need some coffee
lol