Concers about A.'.A.'. lineages
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the one i wrote to is the one whose address is listed in Book IV, Gems From The Equinox, and other A'A' publications.
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@daredevil92103 said
"the one i wrote to is the one whose address is listed in Book IV, Gems From The Equinox, and other A'A' publications."
We have no connection to them.
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Jim, i mean no offense, but why?
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i have the utmost respect for u and all the answers u have given.
and it doesnt really matter to me that u arent affiliated with them, but on all the publications of the A' A' i have read, it has the O.T.O. address, and then it has the A' A' address.
i figured if they are the ones publishing the A' A' stuff then they must be the real one.
of course i want to find out as much as possible about everything i can and now u have my interested in why no affiliation. -
From helema.org/aa/index.html -
"Since the death of Aleister Crowley in 1947 there have been no universal Chiefs of the A.'.A.'.. Karl Germer (S.'.H.'. Frater Saturnus, 8=3), was the senior living A.'.A.'. member at Crowley's death, and many turned to him for guidance; but he never took up the mantle of governance of the Order. After Germer's death, no single person emerged visibly as a central guiding figure.
Yet the Order itself has continued, according to its original plan whereby a member of sufficient Grade may admit others to the chain.
Various lineages have survived. Claims are periodically encountered that one individual or another is an authentic link to A.'.A.'.. Some of these claims are quite real; some are honest mistakes; and some are fraudulent. It is not our present purpose to play arbiter to these claims, to upraise one or knock down another. It is a universal truth of Initiation that each student, at each step along the way, gets the teacher he or she "deserves," based on the real maturity and needs of the soul; and that while sometimes spiritual growth is fostered by finding the BEST teacher, at other times it is best fostered by lessons of discrimination taught in the School of Hard Knocks.
In this matter we give but one sage piece of advice: "By their fruits shall ye know them!" The Works of the Adept, the fruits of his or her garden, are the signs of his or her attainment."
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i agree totally with that statement, Jim.
i just was wondering if there was a specific reason i should be aware of, or just a matter of choice, or where one was led. that's all.
the way i see it we are all brothers and sisters with the same aims. -
The above is the only public statement we make on the issue of variant lineages.
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i thought that was what it was.
i figured it was your way of answering without throwing anything in that may reflect one way or another on that branch of the A' A'.
very much appreciated and although you hav my curiosity up and wondering, i know that i was given the answer i needed.
i am no judge. i believe all paths are beneficial if done sincerely and with ones whole being. as always, Jim, ur comments are helpful more than know. -
FYI, at the bottom of the Wikipedia page on the A.'.A.'. there is a list of URLs that link to the various lineages. I'm pretty sure the one with the contact address in the OTO publications is the one listed as "Motta via J. Daniel Gunther."
By their websites shall ye know them...
Steve
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Steven,
very interesting piece of info i had no idea about.
much thanks, and i will have to look into this one further.
fraternally. -
checked into it a little, still a legit lineage tho.
does seem to be some things i need to look into more.
i know u werent implying anything negative, just giving me a heads-up.
thanks again steve.
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i agree, sethur.
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93,
Sethur wrote:
"I wonder if Buddha or Lao Tze had a "correct lineage"......... "
Lao Tze is hard to pin down, since we have few facts about him, but Siddhartha Gautama was initiated by several teachers, and then did years of advanced practices, according to all accepted versions of his history.
I also think that there is always a further initiator involved at even the highest stages: just not necessarily a being that's still incarnate, or waving physical wands or scepters over the candidate.
I've always had a problem with the notion of self-initiation. Prince Siddhartha could not have produced the Buddha - he could only have prompted himself to go forth and seek. It was Bodhi (or Bodhisattvas) that turned him into the Buddha.93 93/93,
EM
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personally i think our HGA always leads us where we need to be, and we all have many ppl we learn from. some of these are not in physical bodies. i have no problem with self-initiation, i just dont think that one can do so and lay claim to any degrees not bestowed on you from a person in the group with the authority to do it bestowing that degree on you. i mean the buddha came to his realization after trying many things and meeting many ppl. i'm just babbling though, i need some coffee
lol
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@Edward Mason said
"93,
Sethur wrote:
"I wonder if Buddha or Lao Tze had a "correct lineage"......... "
Lao Tze is hard to pin down, since we have few facts about him, but Siddhartha Gautama was initiated by several teachers, and then did years of advanced practices, according to all accepted versions of his history.
I also think that there is always a further initiator involved at even the highest stages: just not necessarily a being that's still incarnate, or waving physical wands or scepters over the candidate.
I've always had a problem with the notion of self-initiation. Prince Siddhartha could not have produced the Buddha - he could only have prompted himself to go forth and seek. It was Bodhi (or Bodhisattvas) that turned him into the Buddha.93 93/93,
EM"
The essence of Buddhism is, though, that Gautama turned his back on what he had been taught and instead started his own new lineage based on the Third Way, which he didn't learn from anyone. But even if he was relying on those lineages. who started the first one?
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Sethur, 93,
I think initiation starts each of us on a process that eventually leads us to turn our backs on the ideas and practices we are taught. They are means, though at first they seem to be, or to contain, the end. Initiation kick-starts individuation.
Personally, I see Buddha as having realized the essence of Indian mystical philosophy, though I can see most Indian mystics would have a "Yes, but..." to say in response to that. He just took what he was given and followed it through to its end - or non-end.
I'm not sure that "who" is the right pronoun to apply to the origins of the first lineage(s). The source is in no way personal, or even individual.
That leads to the question of "How then did someone start being the first teacher?" I think the answer to that lies in looking at That which initiates, and which is Itself initiated, rather than the humans who are the mundane vehicle for this.
93 93/93,
EM
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@Steven Cranmer said
"FYI, at the bottom of the Wikipedia page on the A.'.A.'. there is a list of URLs that link to the various lineages. I'm pretty sure the one with the contact address in the OTO publications is the one listed as "Motta via J. Daniel Gunther."
By their websites shall ye know them...
Steve"
That's a misleading statement on Gunther. Gunther was, true, once a student of Motta but he continued to work in the A.'.A.'. with another teacher later after he and Motta had a parting of the ways in the late 70s. You can't call the A.'.A.'. in the OTO publications the Motta OTO as none of the officers of that lineage were in contact with Motta when Motta passed away. The Motta lineage passed onto Ray Eales and David Bersson and a few others in Brazil like Paolo Manini and Euclydes Lacerda de Almeida... take that for what it is worth though.
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Wikipedia also now shows a link to an Online site: The Temple of Truth.