Concers about A.'.A.'. lineages
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From helema.org/aa/index.html -
"Since the death of Aleister Crowley in 1947 there have been no universal Chiefs of the A.'.A.'.. Karl Germer (S.'.H.'. Frater Saturnus, 8=3), was the senior living A.'.A.'. member at Crowley's death, and many turned to him for guidance; but he never took up the mantle of governance of the Order. After Germer's death, no single person emerged visibly as a central guiding figure.
Yet the Order itself has continued, according to its original plan whereby a member of sufficient Grade may admit others to the chain.
Various lineages have survived. Claims are periodically encountered that one individual or another is an authentic link to A.'.A.'.. Some of these claims are quite real; some are honest mistakes; and some are fraudulent. It is not our present purpose to play arbiter to these claims, to upraise one or knock down another. It is a universal truth of Initiation that each student, at each step along the way, gets the teacher he or she "deserves," based on the real maturity and needs of the soul; and that while sometimes spiritual growth is fostered by finding the BEST teacher, at other times it is best fostered by lessons of discrimination taught in the School of Hard Knocks.
In this matter we give but one sage piece of advice: "By their fruits shall ye know them!" The Works of the Adept, the fruits of his or her garden, are the signs of his or her attainment."
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i agree totally with that statement, Jim.
i just was wondering if there was a specific reason i should be aware of, or just a matter of choice, or where one was led. that's all.
the way i see it we are all brothers and sisters with the same aims. -
The above is the only public statement we make on the issue of variant lineages.
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i thought that was what it was.
i figured it was your way of answering without throwing anything in that may reflect one way or another on that branch of the A' A'.
very much appreciated and although you hav my curiosity up and wondering, i know that i was given the answer i needed.
i am no judge. i believe all paths are beneficial if done sincerely and with ones whole being. as always, Jim, ur comments are helpful more than know. -
FYI, at the bottom of the Wikipedia page on the A.'.A.'. there is a list of URLs that link to the various lineages. I'm pretty sure the one with the contact address in the OTO publications is the one listed as "Motta via J. Daniel Gunther."
By their websites shall ye know them...
Steve
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Steven,
very interesting piece of info i had no idea about.
much thanks, and i will have to look into this one further.
fraternally. -
checked into it a little, still a legit lineage tho.
does seem to be some things i need to look into more.
i know u werent implying anything negative, just giving me a heads-up.
thanks again steve.
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i agree, sethur.
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93,
Sethur wrote:
"I wonder if Buddha or Lao Tze had a "correct lineage"......... "
Lao Tze is hard to pin down, since we have few facts about him, but Siddhartha Gautama was initiated by several teachers, and then did years of advanced practices, according to all accepted versions of his history.
I also think that there is always a further initiator involved at even the highest stages: just not necessarily a being that's still incarnate, or waving physical wands or scepters over the candidate.
I've always had a problem with the notion of self-initiation. Prince Siddhartha could not have produced the Buddha - he could only have prompted himself to go forth and seek. It was Bodhi (or Bodhisattvas) that turned him into the Buddha.93 93/93,
EM
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personally i think our HGA always leads us where we need to be, and we all have many ppl we learn from. some of these are not in physical bodies. i have no problem with self-initiation, i just dont think that one can do so and lay claim to any degrees not bestowed on you from a person in the group with the authority to do it bestowing that degree on you. i mean the buddha came to his realization after trying many things and meeting many ppl. i'm just babbling though, i need some coffee
lol
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@Edward Mason said
"93,
Sethur wrote:
"I wonder if Buddha or Lao Tze had a "correct lineage"......... "
Lao Tze is hard to pin down, since we have few facts about him, but Siddhartha Gautama was initiated by several teachers, and then did years of advanced practices, according to all accepted versions of his history.
I also think that there is always a further initiator involved at even the highest stages: just not necessarily a being that's still incarnate, or waving physical wands or scepters over the candidate.
I've always had a problem with the notion of self-initiation. Prince Siddhartha could not have produced the Buddha - he could only have prompted himself to go forth and seek. It was Bodhi (or Bodhisattvas) that turned him into the Buddha.93 93/93,
EM"
The essence of Buddhism is, though, that Gautama turned his back on what he had been taught and instead started his own new lineage based on the Third Way, which he didn't learn from anyone. But even if he was relying on those lineages. who started the first one?
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Sethur, 93,
I think initiation starts each of us on a process that eventually leads us to turn our backs on the ideas and practices we are taught. They are means, though at first they seem to be, or to contain, the end. Initiation kick-starts individuation.
Personally, I see Buddha as having realized the essence of Indian mystical philosophy, though I can see most Indian mystics would have a "Yes, but..." to say in response to that. He just took what he was given and followed it through to its end - or non-end.
I'm not sure that "who" is the right pronoun to apply to the origins of the first lineage(s). The source is in no way personal, or even individual.
That leads to the question of "How then did someone start being the first teacher?" I think the answer to that lies in looking at That which initiates, and which is Itself initiated, rather than the humans who are the mundane vehicle for this.
93 93/93,
EM
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@Steven Cranmer said
"FYI, at the bottom of the Wikipedia page on the A.'.A.'. there is a list of URLs that link to the various lineages. I'm pretty sure the one with the contact address in the OTO publications is the one listed as "Motta via J. Daniel Gunther."
By their websites shall ye know them...
Steve"
That's a misleading statement on Gunther. Gunther was, true, once a student of Motta but he continued to work in the A.'.A.'. with another teacher later after he and Motta had a parting of the ways in the late 70s. You can't call the A.'.A.'. in the OTO publications the Motta OTO as none of the officers of that lineage were in contact with Motta when Motta passed away. The Motta lineage passed onto Ray Eales and David Bersson and a few others in Brazil like Paolo Manini and Euclydes Lacerda de Almeida... take that for what it is worth though.
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Wikipedia also now shows a link to an Online site: The Temple of Truth.
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@Metzareph said
"The Temple of Truth exist in Second Life as well...?"
"exist" or "exists"?
What "Second Life"?
"as well...?" - As well as what?
Unable to understand message or question, as the case may be. I must need more Qabalastic training.
Anyway, check it out for yourself at: crystal-city.angelfire.com.Helios
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well ... I meant "exists"
Yes, I've been to the website. And I thought it was kind of entertaining, but I don't know if that was the purpose. More like a game.
Second Life is an Internet-based virtual world. There is or was a person here that was using Second Life to "train and admit" people into the "A.'.A.'."
That's why I'm asking.
Just curious. -
@Metzareph said
"Yes, I've been to the website. And I thought it was kind of entertaining, but I don't know if that was the purpose. More like a game...There is or was a person here that was using Second Life to "train and admit" people into the "A.'.A.'." That's why I'm asking."
Aha, now I understand. I do not need more Qabalah, I need more www knowledge. Anyway, No, we are not associated with Second Life.
Just this morning we received an inquiry for training, and the applicant was referred to the *Temple of Truth *website with the following comments (among others):
"Although the presentation appears to be out of a comic book, and is generally designed for the amusement of advanced initiates, it is also quite serious and all the oaths and details of the path are right there. There are no fees and there is no dictatorship ... There is a lot of humor and sarcasm, but really, it's all the straight stuff! - as you will perceive if you are destined to tread this particular path."
Helios
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Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the Law
heh... i wondered when somebody was gonna get around to us in this thread...
i'm a member of motta's lineage through the (in)famous david bersson, a.k.a. frater sphinx. lots of people don't like sphinx. me, i love him.
i'm fortunate enough to live in his neighborhood, and as i also have the honor of being a member of (S)OTO i get to see him fairly regularly. let me tell ya something: the rumors Ain't True. some of the things i read online about him are enough to curl anybody's hair - yeah, he's hardcore. yeah, he's on the pillar of severity. no, he's not a loon nor is he a charlatan. gawds... just grab a copy of his "gold coins" from thelema publishing outlet (you can get there from <!-- w --><a class="postlink" href="http://www.castletower.org">www.castletower.org</a><!-- w -->) and do his sacred ritual of the bull sacrifice a few times if you've got any doubts in THAT direction!
as for convenience... initiation is many things; convenience isn't one of them.
i don't know that much about the lineage that jim here represents, but i do know, just from being on the board here, that jim is a dedicated and sincere themelite who is indeed manifesting supreme the wisdom of the work in his own particular way.
i know quite a bit about the "lineage" that's associated with the caliphate O.T.O., not the least of which is that they don't tend to respond to inquiries. as i understand it (and do correct me if i'm mistaken) their current head honcho is one william breze, who was thrown out of motta's (my) lineage for not bothering with his oath and task over a course of eight years. one thing i do know: you can't just sign up with another lineage - once you're out, you're Out.
i don't represent motta's lineage through frater sphinx by any stretch of the imagination; my attitudes aren't necessarily his attitudes (or those of anybody else in our lineage - shit, there's thousands of us!) and so on, but i -=am=- one example of someone who comes from and dwells within that particular school of thought, for whatever that's worth.
if you want to learn about frater sphinx (david bersson) then learn about him through his own words - <!-- w --><a class="postlink" href="http://www.castletower.org">www.castletower.org</a><!-- w --> - don't bother trying to get info from his enemies.
if you want to learn about motta's lineage and his school of thought, get a hold of "the commentaries of AL." if you can't get a hold of it, drop me a line; i'll hook you right up.
Love is the law, love under will