blood of the moon!
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@Fraterdeen said
"Yeah, you have a point;
these ATUS are interchangeable depending on your point of view."I suppose that's true in the sense that it's true of all facts soever
But I certainly wouldn't agree that they are interchnaeable or according to convenience of the moment. Different schools of Tarot assign them one way or another.
Historically, Strength / Lust (or the equivalent) was always XI and Justice / Adjustment was always VIII. Yet the former is clearly Leo and the latter Libra, which seems to disturb the otherwise perfect Zodiac distribution of the 12 Simple letters. Three different Exempt Adepts emerging from the Golden Dawn, all saw this problem and undertook to solve it.
Waite and Case, presuming all other attributions were correct based on the Sepher Yetzirah, found the easiest solution to be swapping the numbers on those two cards - presuming it was a blind.
Crowley, receiving Third Order instruction that Tzaddi is not The Star, discovered that the attributions of Heh and Tzaddi had been wrong - that instead of being Aries and Aquarius respectively, they were Aquarius and Aries respectively. Once this discovery was made, there was no longer any reason to swap XI and VIII on Leo and Libra - in fact, it would then have broken the system! - since IV and XVII were also sequentially swapped, and Leo-Libra (pivoting around Virgo) were exactly matched by Aquarius-Aries (pivoting around Pisces).
But yes, I got that the most important point in your numeration was the 9 value of Teth, not the trump number.
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Thank You Hoornet, Thank You Jim.
I went back and edited my first post. If I could go back and edit the second one and get away with I WOULD!
"Quote Hoornet:
ATU VIII = Lamed
ATU XI = Teth
At least that is what I'm told."Yes, this is correct. My first exposure to Magick was BOTA. I was in a rush when I wrote the above and fell back to in to an old habit pattern.
"Quote Jim:
But I certainly wouldn't agree that they are interchangeable or according to convenience of the moment. Different schools of Tarot assign them one way or another. "I confused my symbol sets. I have been told here before, it is best to stick with One Internal set of Symbols.
My apologies for taking everyone off the topic. This may be better suited for another tread.Love is the Law Love under will.
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@Jim Eshelman said
"Crowley, receiving Third Order instruction that Tzaddi is not The Star, discovered that the attributions of Heh and Tzaddi had been wrong - that instead of being Aries and Aquarius respectively, they were Aquarius and Aries respectively. Once this discovery was made, there was no longer any reason to swap XI and VIII on Leo and Libra - in fact, it would then have broken the system! - since IV and XVII were also sequentially swapped, and Leo-Libra (pivoting around Virgo) were exactly matched by Aquarius-Aries (pivoting around Pisces)."
If only it were that simple.
Crowley's Star/Emperor switch is slightly different from that of Lust/Adjustment. The latter switch corrects both the sequence of the zodiac and the Hebrew alphabet at the same time. The former switch does not. By moving the Star and Emperor cards around you can have either the the zodiac or the Hebrew alphabet in sequence but not at the same time.
If Crowley had assinged Aries to the Star and Aquarius to the Emperor (obviously wrong), then the system would have been perfectly balanced. As it stands there's a small kink in it.
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@Her said
"Crowley's Star/Emperor switch is slightly different from that of Lust/Adjustment. The latter switch corrects both the sequence of the zodiac and the Hebrew alphabet at the same time. The former switch does not. By moving the Star and Emperor cards around you can have either the the zodiac or the Hebrew alphabet in sequence but not at the same time."
What lines up are the Trump numbers against the sequence of the Hebrew letters. When you swap Heh-Tzaddi and Teyth-Lamed, the Trump numbers become: 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 11, 13, 14, 15, 17, 18.
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@Jim Eshelman said
"What lines up are the Trump numbers against the sequence of the Hebrew letters. When you swap Heh-Tzaddi and Teyth-Lamed, the Trump numbers become: 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 11, 13, 14, 15, 17, 18."
This is my point exactly. Following the natural order of the Tarot trumps creates a balanced double loop in the Hebrew alphabet but only one loop in the sequence of the zodiac.
If you want to correct the zodiac sequence you have to break the order of the Hebrew alphabet and the Tarot trumps.
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I have the strong impression that we have gone off-topic - and what an interesting topic! Jim started saying that he doesn't know how to begin; maybe he has more to share???
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Do what thou will shall be the whole of the law.
This Question has been moved to Chanting Ain Under the Qabalah section of the forum
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@Jim Eshelman said
"This provides an interesting basis for one aspect of a distinctly Hebraic tantra from the woman's point of view"
My grandmother taught me of a sort of Hebraic Tantra involving Lilith as the focus. According to her, Lilith was a manifestation of Binah/Saturn. She was the devourer of Adam's seed in the same way that Saturn devoured His children - & the same reason why witches symbolically ate children on their Sabbath - it was the "Fresh Blood of a Child". She also taught me that Lilith was an aspect of the Shekinah & that the image of Her(Shekinah) descending upon a Adam on the Sabbath(Saturn-day) was a symbol for Woman striding Man during intercourse...this is why Lilith was angered by not getting to be on top - for it was her rightful place...all of this, though, had to occure during the Full Moon of a Woman's cycle - for that, in It's Severity as well as It's Understanding, is what Lilith represents.
R.E.D.
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Fascinating stuff from everyone here. Some musings taking flight therefrom:
On the topic of it being taboo, logically, since priesthood in the averse usually wants to keep things to itself and to disempower its flock, it suggests itself that cunnilingus during menstruation is somehow empowering. What kind of power? The power of independence perhaps, the power not to be so easily entranced by all sorts of memes - the meme of self, the memes of culture (including the priesthood's memes!). (This seems to me to be at least part of the point of the Mass of the Pheonix too!)
If something like this is true, then this would bring out the possibility of a neurochemical investigation into the composition of the substances in question, to see if any of the hormones or whatever might be related to the capacity of the brain to shake off entrancement. Again, what suggests itself to me in this regard is that you'd be looking for a threshold chemical thingy that has something to do with the survival instinct.
What I mean is, if what normally occludes our Godhead and our through-and-through connection with the world around us, is what the Austrialian mystic John Wren-Lewis called "a malfunction in consciousness", and if that malfunction has to do with a hyperactive or over-active survival mechanism, with a very strong, very pumped up protective ego that totally takes up our attention; and if that's linked with chemical combinations from sexuality capable of bringing the level of the survival ego down a bit, that might open up some new avenues of research into how the brain works.
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This excerpt from The Vedic Sexual Code has some interesting things to say concerning the hormonal composition of menstrual blood:
...it begins the discussion of menstruation on page 282 but the discussion of the chemical composition does not commence until page 285.
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"And lift thou up thy rod, and stretch out thy hand[Yod] over the Red Sea, and divide it." - Exodus 14:16
R.E.D.
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@Red Eagle of Death said
"the image of Her(Shekinah) descending upon a Adam on the Sabbath(Saturn-day) was a symbol for Woman striding Man during intercourse...this is why Lilith was angered by not getting to be on top - for it was her rightful place"
"If the Ruby Star have shed its blood upon thee; if in the season of the moon thou hast invoked by the Iod and the Pe, then mayest thou partake of this most secret sacrament." - LXVI, v.5
"Up! The Ruddy clouds hang over thee! It is the storm. There is a flaming gash in the sky." - CCCLXX, v. 3-4
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@Red Eagle of Death said
""And lift thou up thy rod, and stretch out thy hand[Yod] over the Red Sea, and divide it." - Exodus 14:16
R.E.D."
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damn vampires..