Star Ruby
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@h2h said
"Any consensus on the nature of these four Greek/Chaldean principles?"
Obviously not
"Also, I wonder whether it makes sense to try to correlate these Greek/Chaldean principles to the Tree of Life?"
It's tempting, and I've certainly been known to attempt it myself. For many years now, though, I've persisted in the opinion that Crowley didn't really put that much thought into it, and simply grabbed whatever Greek names he found handy at the moment and threw them in.
"Given the sexual nature of the Star Ruby"
You say that as if it's been demonstrated. I don't find it any more or less sexual per se than many other things (though some of the characters can look kinda hot!).
I don't remember (and don't have time to save this and scroll up and look) - did I post here links to Angela Wixtrom's wonderful artistic renderings of my Qabalistic analyses of these wardens' names? Here are the pictures:
aumha.org/images/iugges.jpg
aumha.org/images/teletarchai.jpg
aumha.org/images/sunoches.jpg
aumha.org/images/daimonos.jpg -
Sorry, I meant to write “informed consensus”.
Jim - I’m surprised that you do not regard the Star Ruby to be sexual in nature. You have two male/female polarities - Therion/Babalon, and Nuit/Hadit - for the four quarters. They unite in the center of the circle and create a magickal child that "rises up through the Tree of Life to the abyss".
Based on my experience, the Star Ruby is very different than the LBRP. The LBRP feels like a banishing ritual whereas I’m not really sure what is going on in the Star Ruby. In fact I am rather suspicious of it. I usually feel nothing immediately after doing the Star Ruby, but in the days that follow I start to feel a strong connection or current to Babalon and an "abyssal" feeling that makes me nervous. Invariably weird things start to happen in my life - not necessarily pleasant or desirable - through regular use of the Star Ruby.
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@Jim Eshelman said
"... For many years now, though, I've persisted in the opinion that Crowley didn't really put that much thought into it, and simply grabbed whatever Greek names he found handy at the moment and threw them in..."
In your experience working with Crowley material have you noticed him making a habit of just throwing things in without much thought? If not, why would you think so now?
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Frater Pantha,
Thanks for putting the question so well. Btw, I subscribe to the view that AC created Star Ruby as an elaborate joke of a sexual nature (and, no, don't ask for details...)
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@h2h said
"Jim - I’m surprised that you do not regard the Star Ruby to be sexual in nature. You have two male/female polarities - Therion/Babalon, and Nuit/Hadit - for the four quarters. They unite in the center of the circle and create a magical child that "rises up through the Tree of Life to the abyss"."
Well, one way we're seeing things different is that I mostly ignore that version. The Book of Lies is by far my favorite. There is an important formulaic differnce between the two: The original version follows the Macrocosmic (Second Order) elemental attributrions and works them Fire-down-to-Earth. This is part of what makes it truly an Adept's ritual. The later (MT&P) reverses the sequence and might serve as a First Order and pre-initiate ritual (and works the elements Earth-up-to-Fire). This change then rewrites the overal formula of the ritual. (I've written on that quite extensively in Black Pearl, reproduced elsewhere on this forum.)
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Ok, I'll try the Book of Lies version. See what happens.
I would be interested to know why you think AC didn't put much thought into the Star Ruby..
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Hi
" There is an important formulaic differnce between the two: The original version follows the Macrocosmic (Second Order) elemental attributrions and works them Fire-down-to-Earth."
So does this also have to do with the order in which the NOX signs are given?, or is the same order that is used in Reguli also used in the Book of Lies version of the Star Ruby? Also, about the elemental attributions; how do they differ from the MTP version?
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@Fr.211 said
"Also, about the elemental attributions; how do they differ from the MTP version?"
In The Book of Lies version, 'CHAOS' is roared in the east rather than 'THERION'...'BABALON' is screamed to the north rather than saying 'NUIT'...in the west 'EROS' is said rather than whispering 'BABALON'...& in the south 'PSYCHE' is bellowed rather than 'HADIT'.
616
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@Fr.211 said
"So does this also have to do with the order in which the NOX signs are given?, or is the same order that is used in Reguli also used in the Book of Lies version of the Star Ruby? Also, about the elemental attributions; how do they differ from the MTP version?"
No, they're given the same way - at the center, at the middle part of the ritual. They aren't given in the quarters as in Reguli.
The Liber 333 version has Fire in the East, Water in the North, Air in the West, and Earth in the North. The MT&P version has Earth in the East, Air in the North, Water in the West, and Fire in the South.
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@KRVB MMShCh said
"In The Book of Lies version, 'CHAOS' is roared in the east rather than 'THERION'...'BABALON' is screamed to the north rather than saying 'NUIT'...in the west 'EROS' is said rather than whispering 'BABALON'...& in the south 'PSYCHE' is bellowed rather than 'HADIT'."
Yes. Skipping past various styles that could be ambiguous, one can tell the Lion and the Bull from the Roar and the Bellow.
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@Jim Eshelman said
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@Fr.211 said
"So does this also have to do with the order in which the NOX signs are given?, or is the same order that is used in Reguli also used in the Book of Lies version of the Star Ruby? Also, about the elemental attributions; how do they differ from the MTP version?"No, they're given the same way - at the center, at the middle part of the ritual. They aren't given in the quarters as in Reguli.
The Liber 333 version has Fire in the East, Water in the North, Air in the West, and Earth in the North. The MT&P version has Earth in the East, Air in the North, Water in the West, and Fire in the South."
Why are the directions so plyable? I thought east was air, earth eas north, west was water & south was fire...can you explain to me how & why the same ritual would have several different corresponding directions?
L.Lazuli
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@Lapis said
"Why are the directions so plyable? I thought east was air, earth eas north, west was water & south was fire...can you explain to me how & why the same ritual would have several different corresponding directions?"
There are different schemes with different implications.
Already in the G.D. you see one framework (called Microcosmic) in use in the First Order, and another (called Macrocosmic) in use within the vault (but not outside the vault or equivalent) in the Second Order.
Something I haven't seen explained elsewhere - possibly I discovered it - is that the frameworks of the different scheme is derived from certain divine names. The oldest Kabbalistic divine names for the top, bottom, and middle of the Middle Pillar are: ADNI for Malkuth, YHVH for Tiphereth, and AHIH for Kether.
Now, for the First Order, beginning in Malkuth, the pattern is based on the letters of ADNI clockwise from the East. (Remember that planets take their elemental attribution from the Sephirothic attribution.) For the Second Order, beginning in Tiphereth, the pattern is based on the letters of YHVH counter-clockwise from the East. Conceivably there is a third pattern for the Third Order based on the letters of AHIH, and I think these are distributed in the form of a cross.
But there are other scheme possible. Imagine a Malkuth ritual where the particular nature of the working was served by laying out the elements as in the quarters of Malkuth on the Tree. And so forth...
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I guess I should have been more specific in my question; by the order in which they are given I meant: does it still go Puella, Puer, Vir, Mulier, Maters Triumphans as it does in Reguli? Or is there another order in which to give them where the descend from Fire to Earth is traced out to strengthen the effect of the BOL version of the Star Ruby? I've read that Crowley altered the original version of the Star Ruby to conform with Reguli, so I was wondering whether the order in which the NOX signs are given was also altered. Btw, great site here!
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@Fr.211 said
"I guess I should have been more specific in my question; by the order in which they are given I meant: does it still go Puella, Puer, Vir, Mulier, Maters Triumphans as it does in Reguli?"
No no no. Isn't this information generally available? It has no relationship to what's done in Reguli at all. It's spelled out on this forum in this therad:
www.heruraha.net/viewtopic.php?t=474Facing East after you've returned to the center, say the parts in bold and do these actions:
N. (give the Sign of Puer, 6=5, corresponding to Geburah)
O. (give the Sign of Vir, 7=4, corresponding to Chesed)
(With a brief pause of silence, give the Sign of Puella = the first sign of the Babe of the Abyss)
X. (give the Sign of Mulier = the second sign of the Babe of the Abyss)
NOX — IO PAN (Give the Sign of Mater Triumphans, 8=3, corresponding to Binah)"Or is there another order in which to give them where the descend from Fire to Earth is traced out to strengthen the effect of the BOL version of the Star Ruby?"
The sequence is the same and the way of doing it is the same. It isn't related to what you've done with the elements around the quarter. The ritual has gone on to a whole different process.
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@Jim Eshelman said
"Now, for the First Order, beginning in Malkuth, the pattern is based on the letters of ADNI clockwise from the East."
I'm not sure I know what you mean...are you talking about the elemental attributions of each letter?...such as A=air, D=fire, N=water & I=earth?
L.Lazuli
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@Lapis said
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@Jim Eshelman said
"Now, for the First Order, beginning in Malkuth, the pattern is based on the letters of ADNI clockwise from the East."I'm not sure I know what you mean...are you talking about the elemental attributions of each letter?...such as A=air, D=fire, N=water & I=earth?"
Yes. A D N I is Aleph (Air), Venus (Fire via Netzach), Scorpio (a Water sign), Virgo (an Earth sign).
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@Jim Eshelman said
"Yes. A D N I is Aleph (Air), Venus (Fire via Netzach), Scorpio (a Water sign), Virgo (an Earth sign)."
So what would the elemental correspondances of YHVH & AHIH be? Is YHVH the traditional fire, water, air & earth? I have never seen an elemental correspondance to AHIH...
L.Lazilu
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@Lapis said
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@Jim Eshelman said
"Yes. A D N I is Aleph (Air), Venus (Fire via Netzach), Scorpio (a Water sign), Virgo (an Earth sign)."So what would the elemental correspondances of YHVH & AHIH be? Is YHVH the traditional fire, water, air & earth? I have never seen an elemental correspondance to AHIH..."
On YHVH yes. In other words, the standard Macrocosmic scheme is Fire, Water, Air, Earth counter-clockwise from the East. (See, for example, the usual instructions for the Lesser Hexagram Ritual which, however, usually fail to mention that those directions are only used within the Vault of the Adepti.)
No, you wouldn't have seen AHIH anywhere. It's my extrapolation from the rest. The key was to figure out which Heh is which. The solution: There are many contexts in which AHIH and IHVH are amalgamated so that the IH at the end of one and the beginning of the other are the same letters. This means that Aleph Heh is Air-Earth and Yod Heh is Fire-Water. With various other patterns falling in place, this resolves to Air-Earth being the East-West axis, and Fire-Water being South-North. (This cross completes the other two circles.)
An interesting discovery is that the resulting pattern actually appears in the Golden Dawn 0=0 temple floor plan and gives one explanation for the seeming disparity between the First Order eloemental positions vs. the Hiereus and Stolistes stations.
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Actually like a few others that have posted in this thread, I got confused by the sparse attention that Crowley gave to explaining the NOX signs, combined with certain authors having interpreted them in different ways. This quote in particular set me thinking that the order of the NOX signs might be related to the intent of the original Greek version of the Star Ruby:
"There is an oral tradition, probably deriving originally from the Berkeley OTO, which performs the signs in the order of the four worlds from Fire to Earth, followed by Spirit. This represents the descent of the divine reality through the four worlds into the circle, establishing the manifestation of Spirit"
In any case, thanx for your answer; it makes sense that the order should trace out the grades above the abyss, as Crowley probably originally intended
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@Fr.211 said
"Actually like a few others that have posted in this thread, I got confused by the sparse attention that Crowley gave to explaining the NOX signs, combined with certain authors having interpreted them in different ways."
At the time he was writing this stuff, he considered that stuff secret. The N.O.X. signs are the grade signs of 6=5 through 8=3 in A.'.A.'. and had other implications he wasn't ready to write about. His private magical notebook had lots of stuff, though, and there are notes in correspondence.