The English Lion & the American Eagle
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@Jim Eshelman said
"When Margaret Thatcher says “When the British lion and American eagle are together, the world is a better place," I don't assume a sexual meaning."
I didn't say sexual - the imagery of the Lion & the Eagle lend themselves to more meanings than simply 'sexual'...you're probably right though...just 'coincidence'...
616
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Behahemi 93,
As one of the Brits on this forum (by birth, if not by current residency), I cheerfully accept your accolade for my country's financiers. However, I can assure you that your guys are just as capable at feathering their own nests, if not more so. Which may be why we're in the current mess. $90-million bonus, anyone? Only if you screw up a major U.S. bank, I think.
BTW, major banks in Britain and Germany have also collapsed, or been sold to prevent collapse, this week. And the Chinese are worried, too, believe it or not.
93 93/93,
EM
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93,
Well, that's a great collection of photos, but I think many people on this forum know that stuff already.
"The fact that all these banks are going at once and that even china is supposedly worried tells me that they arent very autonomous countries with "boundries" in the first place, but at the same time for some reason flags and boundries and just the whole compartmentalized scheme of things is taken to mean that nations and people are independent from eachother."
The consciousness of the continuity of existence is a key Thelemic doctrine, yes. Nothing wrong with that. As for crises, "Die daily" is still a good precept to remember.
93 93/93,
EM
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@Edward Mason said
"Well, that's a great collection of photos, but I think many people on this forum know that stuff already"
I didn't...
- & what's the point of 'knowing' if you don't heed it?R.E.D.
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Benahemi, 93,
You first post was insulting - re-read it:
"supposedly the british were kicked out of this country and now we are presently kissing their asses"
On this site, I'm one of the "we," as are other people from all over the planet. So don't be surprised if you don't get respect for coming in with attitude like that. Initially I treated you with levity, but levity doesn't seem to be your thing. You're angry at a whole laundry list - the British who tried a "full on invasion" (exactly when, I wonder? 1814 was a long time ago) financiers who are "fascists," Christians and so on.
I made a dig at how seriously you take yourself, and you blew up. To me, that's not impressive.
What exactly is a koinkadink?
93 93/93,
EM -
Behahemi, 93,
Your quoting of this definition doesn't relate to your usage in the original remark. You're being disingenuous here.
I guess I'll have to learn what a koinkadink is another time.
A couple of observations on your political rant: the term "Axis" was coined by Benito Mussolini, and pertains to the Rome-Berlin axis he formed with Hitler. It has no connection to the ax in the Fasces. The German for an ax is "beil."
Before the symbol was sullied by the Italian Fascisti, the Fasces represented the rule of law, as opposed to rule-by-whim. It was a legitimate symbol of Geburah, and used to imply concepts such as Justice and Severity. Hence its presence in the various contexts you present. Stretching this to say it indicates a big Fascist conspiracy is ... well, a stretch.
One last point: my "vague quoted thelemic one liner" was directly relevant to your post. A core teaching of the Book of the Law is that all is a continuum: Nuit is continuous, embracing all particular phenomena without distinction. This idea that we are discrete entities, living in discrete countries, is a usable convention, but ultimately, it's a complete fiction. And it leads us into harmfully competitive situations when we adhere to it too closely.
To put it another way, it is a key root of fascism.
93 93/93,
EM
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@Behahemi said
"youre a perma poster and a perma troll."
Actually, he's a site moderator.
"youre argument is just arguing against semantics that really has nothing to do with the original post, you are mentally crippled."
I'm not sure how the first and last parts of that sentence go together. It's very hard for a mental cripple to leverage semantics. - I'm not sure that Edward was "just arguing against semantics," but would like to point out that this site is part of a school and people in that school get their papers graded. (You're really posting in an extension classroom of a small college.) It's entirely appropriate for teachers to hold people to task for grammar, spelling, and the use of language.
"its just anger...i think people hold a lot of deep seeded anger, i think some people that sit at the computer too long hold onto this anger that turns like deep brown and black sick thing....."
Do you speak from firsthand experience, perhaps?
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@Behahemi said
"sorry to have interrupted the college"
Noty interrupted. You're participating in it. I just wanted you to realize that, yeah, don't be surprised if use of language is closely scrutinized.
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@Behahemi said
"you can take your holier than thou horseshit and take your 93s and shove them up your tight asses"
First Administrative Warning. (In fact, as your post progressed, you pushed it pretty hard. I'll mark it a Second Warning.)
"its like your religion is based on how to be the most polished, proficient and professional assholes you can be"
Soror Meral often said (correctly IMHO) that Thelema is a system of spiritual aristocracy. But it's an inclusive aristocracy, not an exclusive one. I can't think of a reason to strive for less.
"to make everyone around you feel foolish no matter what the circumstance or subject."
On that you're wrong. The wish is for everyone to rise to be the best example of themselves and a shining example of humanity at its best.
You're welcome to stay and participate, but you're not welcome to bring this kind of crap into my living room.
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Apology accepted. Thanks.
You have the capacity to edit or delete any of your posts. You can more or less make them the way you want (whether that means leaving them as is, deleting some, editing some, etc.). Use the Edit button or the X button at your discretion. (I now see you've done some of this already.)
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Thank you Mr Mason for some common sense on this issue. I personally think these symbols are meaningless in modern use, medallions and coins are designed by artists, not occultists. The seven-sided 20p piece had us occult Brits wondering a lot when it was introduced, after all, one five-sided rose overlaying another topped by a crown, so it's Kether, then ten, surrounded by seven, ooh, significant!
Then the artist who designed it was interviewed, and he said:
"I wanted a symbol that hadn't been used for a while, and I liked this one."
The seven-sides on the 20p and 50p were designed so blind people could easily distinguish them from the 1p and old 10p while still being able to roll into coin-slot machines. -
Sethur, 93,
Thanks for the compliment. Though I agree with Red Eagle's criticism of my remark about most people already knowing about that stuff (the material Behahemi posted). I wasn't clear how I was supposed to "heed" it, though.
That the Nazis made extensive and very effective use of symbolism is no secret. They made it plain what they were doing, and they were very good at it. We don't often see Italian Fascist or Spanish Falangist imagery today, but everyone associates the swastika and a particular "Queer Eye for the Aryan Guy" fashion-sense with Nazi Germany.
But uniforms aside, I can't believe any human conspiracy is behind how major events play out. We're not that smart. My day-job puts me in contact with senior business-people, many of whom are brilliant - and not necessarily nice. But they never wholly grasp what's happening around them. Put a dozen such giant egos in a room, and you get a nest of vipers, not a conspiracy. The current financial meltdown is clear proof of that. I know the conspiracy fans see the meltdown as part of an ever bigger plan for world domination, but the way this is playing, the variables are so extreme it could all turn in any direction, and do so more than once or twice. Not even a committee of Illuminati can ride 15 rodeo bulls in the same direction at once.
I have a standard reaction when presented with evidence of great conspiracies. Our view of life is colored by modern attitudes to fiction or TV, which becomes unbelievable when the coincidences pile up. "That couldn't happen in real life," we say. This is untrue, because real life presents amazing coincidences. The real life-changing events in my own life were often triggered by fantastic coincidences. They showed the Universe itself is a conspiracy, which I find reassuring. If it wasn't, the existence we lead (if we had one) would be impossible. Or at least, inconceivable to us in our current state.
As far as I grasp the idea of a Magus - a True Will in unfettered action - it seems to involve rolling with your own waves rather than precisely directing anything. Even Crowley, Prophet of the Aeon, could only announce it - it wasn't his idea, in any way we normally think of people "having ideas."
When we project our self-authority onto some greater power or group, we're essentially demonstrating our lack of contact with our own energy. As the True Will, over time, comes to the fore, the idea that someone or something else "has the power" is seen to be false. All the would-be conspirators are just painting the scenery, not playing the starring roles they - or we - think they are.
93 93/93,
EM
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@Edward Mason said
"When we project our self-authority onto some greater power or group, we're essentially demonstrating our lack of contact with our own energy. As the True Will, over time, comes to the fore, the idea that someone or something else "has the power" is seen to be false. All the would-be conspirators are just painting the scenery, not playing the starring roles they - or we - think they are.
"You need to clarify the above better.
How do you explain AC's numerous references to the White Brotherhood, how they controlled his life etc? Or reconcile the above view with the Oath of the Abyss wherein one vows to regard everything as a personal message from the Universe?
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Scratch that. Your italics have been duly noted.
@Edward Mason said
"But uniforms aside, I can't believe any human conspiracy is behind how major events play out."
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There have traditionally been two theories of history, known in the UK as the Conspiracy Theory and the Cock-Up theory (Cock-up means disastrous mistake).
I believe in the Cocked-Up Conspiracy theory.
I do believe human conspiracies to control us exist, and to a certain extent that is what the CIA etc are there for - to do things to further a particular political belief in secret. But they aren't usually very good at it.
Especially when, as in the 1950s, they are fighting each other. J. Edgar Hoover sent agents to try to decode the "secret commie signals" incorporated into Jackson Pollack's art without realising Pollack was being promoted by the CIA.
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93,
Sure, and there are competing conspiracies all the time. The limitations are not in the nastiness of human intentions, which as we know can be extensive, nor even in the resources deployed. The problem lies in human capacity to comprehend an extensive range of variables, which, in the case of any large-scale endeavor, would have to include Rumsfeld's "unknown unknowns" as well as the known unknowns.
I watch all this most in the business area, where you could say any large corporation is a conspiracy aiming to profit at other conspiracies' expense. Sometimes there are alliances of convenience - super-conspiracies if you like - but they are usually limited to narrow areas such as price-fixing, where the unknowns aren't too numerous.
But as you note, the cock-up syndrome surfaces sooner or later, whether you're trying to take over someone else's brutal, corrupt republic without asking the locals first, or make billions pushing dubious loans.
I've often speculated that the human need for experiential education (what we could also call "the initiatory process") trumps the need to succeed in a material sense. That principle still operates on a collective level, such as an executive suite or boardroom, the way it does on a private level.
Ideally, the whole set of off-kilter drives, desires and dysfunctional patterns should offset those of any one individual in that executive group. But usually, the most dominant individual steers things in one direction. So you might end up with a Google or a Wikipedia, which are arguably positive advances. You can also end up with an Enron.
93 93/93,
EM
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Ah Enron! Financial conspiracies are one of my hobbies.
Sub-prime mortgages are a classic example. If you don't earn enough money to get a $500 a month conventional mortgage, why on earth would anyone give you a mortgage for $800 a month? So that they can be bundled up and sold on to financial institutions all over the world, and when you inevitably default and your home is repossessed, the institution that bought the mortgage finds there are no buyers at anywhere near the amount lent - and appearing on their books as an "Asset".
And now, as a result, the United States government owns more American mortgages than any other institution, and along with the nationalisation of Fanny Mae and Freddy Mac has resulted in a Republican President moving further towards interventionist Democratic State Socialism than even the British governments of 1945-51 or 1963-70!
Enron was just a new form of outright fraud, sub-prime is going to test laissez-faire capitalism to its utmost limits.
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I have always thought of it as the images being known, the meaning being occult.
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@sethur said
"Ah Enron! Financial conspiracies are one of my hobbies.
"So much of Finance mystifies me... it seems that there's always new gimmicks that no average Joe will ever understand. Accounting and tax laws make things so hard to follow. Definitely tons of panic-mongering amongst the markets and I'm sure some of that is conspiratorial (like certain traders releasing fake tips or fake scares about stocks).
It has interested me that much of the Financial world relies upon perceived, agreed-upon value. If nobody wanted Google stock, tomorrow it would trade for pennies... since commerce is associated with Mercury/Hod, and magick is too, I wonder how many similarities might be present there.
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Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the Law
...back to the point...
the british "lion" is simply the symbol of royalty adopted by one of their monarchic lines. while it may have had a magickal interpretation at one time, saying "the british lion" is like saying "old glory" nowadays.
same with the america eagle - adopted by congress as our national bird. no big whup. one of the big "masons" in the early governent, ben franklin, actually pushed really hard for the turkey as our national bird instead because it was actually good for something besides scavening carrion.
the phrase "the british lion and the american eagle" certainly has a deeper meaning for Some of us, but that's just a very tiny slice of what you get out of life, language and every other thing when you reprogram your mind to operate along a specific set of symbols that relate to each other in a specific way. crowley talks about this at great length in an early chapter in "Magick Without Tears" - his example is (of course) the Qabalah.
thing is, its important not to confuse the planes. your point of view - how you experience the play of Nuit - is not going to be the same as anybody elses, and it's problematic to ascribe specific (for example) "conspiracies" behind your own magickal and cabalistic revelations. that's the kind of thinking that, say, whassisname... ignatious loyola went with when he founded the jesuits - his (and their) conviction that Their Vision Was Truth turned their order into one of the most restrictive and bloodthirsty orders of their time.
when you consider that their time was the spanish inquisition, that gives you a bit more context. it's still illegal to be a jesuit in france.
that's also the knid of thinking that ends some folks up on the street in tin foil hats, shaking their fists at suspension bridges and muttering at the sidewalk.
Love is the law, love under will