Santeria & Qabalah
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@Red Eagle of Death said
"Are the Saints, as they are understood in the Santeria religion, compatible with the Tree of Life?"
Excellent question. I once asked Jacob Schwartz of Sangraal Sodality whether the Tree of Life is the most precise formulation of a universal glyph for reality, and onto which various gods and concepts can be mapped, or is it a product that is unique to, and should remain amd be studied within, the Jewish tradition and language?
For example, can a correspondence be made between the Tree of Life and Nordic Yggdrasil (World Tree) upon which Odin hung upside down for 9 days and night to finally receive the secret knowledge of the runes? Is this a variation on Osiris being cut into pieces by Set that then end up in the sycamore tree. Note motifs of death, resurrection and the Hanged Man archetype...
Mr. Schwartz did not reply but, judging from other remarks, it was clear that 1) he believes that Kabbalah and the Tree of Life should be studied strictly within the Jewish tradition and language and that 2) - to my surprise - he had a low opinion of 777 - possibly because AC felt no qualms about mapping Roman/Greek/Egyptian deities onto the Tree of Life.
The exchange has stuck in my mind over the years and is consistent with the advice given in Abramelin - that is, one should work within the tradition he or she was born and raised within and avoid mixing and matching, picking and choosing concepts he or she prefers. All paths lead to Rome but the point is to stick with the path one is born into - for reasons that become clear later.
I would be interested to hear opinions on the above..
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I think it's a bit dogmatic & absurd to say that one should without question follow the religion they were born into...I agree that there should be a genuine attempt to 'make friends' with one's native religion simply for the sake of psychological integration, but by no means should one feel as though they have to adhere to that faith absolutely.
616
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A respect and acknowledgment of the tradition you were born into, as well as seeing its value to the world is necessary to freely choose other ways of worship. Otherwise, I have seen that a lot of energy is spent going backwards making their tradition wrong, instead of going forward and developing oneself.
Forwards and backwards are wrong words. Perhaps, expanding oneself is hampered, tethered by denying a part of one's past.
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@Jim Eshelman said
"An important thing to remember, though, is that the Orishas are petitioned through their own rites and symbolism and they tend to be jealous of your mistaking them for someone else."
...curious then that an offshoot of Voudon would even consider an exchange of deity - even if that exchange is only a superficial one.
616
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@KRVB MMShCh said
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@Jim Eshelman said
"An important thing to remember, though, is that the Orishas are petitioned through their own rites and symbolism and they tend to be jealous of your mistaking them for someone else."...curious then that an offshoot of Voudon would even consider an exchange of deity - even if that exchange is only a superficial one."
Huh? I'm not sure what "exchange of Deity" means means. (Aside from the fact that Santeria isn't an offshoot - they originated separately; and Orishas aren't deities, they're Orishas.) -
@Jim Eshelman said
"Here's the Orisha table (#97) that I put in 776 1/2:
- Olodumare
- Obatala, Olofi
- Aganyu, Orungun
- Yemaya
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Just an honest confusion, I would have thought that as husband and wife Obatala and Yemaya would be level, what was the thinking here?
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@Jim Eshelman said
"Orishas aren't deities, they're Orishas.)"
I have heard Candomble followers say the same, but examining their role in West African mythology I think that really are deities.
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@h2h said
"Mr. Schwartz did not reply but, judging from other remarks, it was clear that 1) he believes that Kabbalah and the Tree of Life should be studied strictly within the Jewish tradition and language and that 2) - to my surprise - he had a low opinion of 777 - possibly because AC felt no qualms about mapping Roman/Greek/Egyptian deities onto the Tree of Life.
I would be interested to hear opinions on the above.."
I very much agree with this, as written. It doesn't mean that Kabbalah should only be studied by Jews, but I soon found when learning (modern) Hebrew froma Rabbi that 777/Sepher Sephiroth showed no understanding of the grammar of Hebrew. I gave up Kabbalah for several years to study the general Rabbinic thought from which it arose, and compiled a list of Hebrew roots, the heart of any Semitic language, finding some interesting equivalences. 333, for example, is the value of the root words of "Snow", "Lie down" and "Have sex".
Using the Tree as a filing cabinet lost its appeal for me, though.But Mr Schwarz sounds interesting, surely the Sangraal is part of a Christian mystical tradition?
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@sethur said
"But Mr Schwarz sounds interesting, surely the Sangraal is part of a Christian mystical tradition?"
Yes, he is. Btw the correct spelling for his name is Jacobus Swart. The Sangraal Sodality is indeed a Christian mystical tradition. I don’t know the details of this lineage or how to reconcile Mr. Swart’s traditional views with this particular lineage, but suffice to note that he opens all his posts with “KQ” which stands for “Keep Questing”. In keeping with the larger point of this thread, discerning readers may note the allusion to Kabbalah vs. Qabalah.
His Yahoo group is a wealth of Kabbalistic knowledge and has an excellent e-library for downloading. If Jim doesn’t mind, the link is:
groups.yahoo.com/group/Kabbalahconce
Btw the relevant quote from Abramelin is:
*For it is an indubitable and evident thing that he who is born Christian, Jew, Pagan, Turk, Infidel, or whatever religion it may be, can arrive at the perfection of this Work or Art and become a Master, but he who hath abandoned his natural Law, and embraced another religion opposed to his own, can never arrive at the summit of this Sacred Science. *
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@Jim Eshelman said
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Huh? I'm not sure what "exchange of Deity" means means. (Aside from the fact that Santeria isn't an offshoot - they originated separately"A 'superficial exchange of deity' meaning they work with the same spirits under different guises(that of the saint) - & I don't see how Santeria & Voudon could've originated seperately...the saitly covers used in Santeria were adopted to avoid persecution...most sources indicate that Santeria originated 'as a result of', not 'seperate from' Voudon.
@Jim Eshelman said
"and Orishas aren't deities, they're Orishas.)"
Even though they're viewed as sort of elemantal spirits, the Orishas are seen as the primary means of interaction between the practitioners & their primary deity Olorun...the Orishas are seen as a manifestation of Olorun.
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@Jim Eshelman said
"Aside from the fact that Santeria isn't an offshoot - they originated separately"
Santeria may have developed seperate from the Yourba people - but that is only because they were seperated from their native country. Santeria would not exist if it weren't for the religion of the Yourba people being taken through Cuba & the Americas.
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I thought that too...
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@Lapis said
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@Jim Eshelman said
"Aside from the fact that Santeria isn't an offshoot - they originated separately"Santeria may have developed seperate from the Yourba people - but that is only because they were seperated from their native country. Santeria would not exist if it weren't for the religion of the Yourba people being taken through Cuba & the Americas."
Quite right.
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@KRVB MMShCh said
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@Jim Eshelman said
" Huh? I'm not sure what "exchange of Deity" means means. (Aside from the fact that Santeria isn't an offshoot - they originated separately"A 'superficial exchange of deity' meaning they work with the same spirits under different guises(that of the saint)"
Ah. Got it. Quite right.
"& I don't see how Santeria & Voudon could've originated seperately...the saitly covers used in Santeria were adopted to avoid persecution...most sources indicate that Santeria originated 'as a result of', not 'seperate from' Voudon."
The Haitian form of Voudoun is probably the earliest in the Western world, other localized forms spinning out of that. The slaves originating it were primarily West African, especially Ghanan. It underwent its own Catholicization to become the New World form of their Old World religion. Santeria is of primarily Cuban origin based on the Old World religion of the Yoruba people from Nigeria - a separately religion that underwent a separate Catholicization.
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@Jim Eshelman said
"and Orishas aren't deities, they're Orishas.)"Even though they're viewed as sort of elemantal spirits, the Orishas are seen as the primary means of interaction between the practitioners & their primary deity Olorun...the Orishas are seen as a manifestation of Olorun."
Yes. And that's an important distinction. They are actually more like the Holy Guardian Angel (in the Roman Catholic, rather than Western Mystery Tradition, sense) than they are like gods, but they are petitioned much as one would petition deities in other religions. (They are masked by Roman Catholic saints, but the means of petition and relationship is much more pagan the mainstream Catholic use of the saints.)
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indeed...we're on the same page
616
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I feel sorry for the Orishas.. They've already suffered one indignity, show them a little respect.
Jim - I find it hard to believe you do not have an opinion on the traditionalist vs. filing cabinet view of the Tree of Life.
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@h2h said
"Jim - I find it hard to believe you do not have an opinion on the traditionalist vs. filing cabinet view of the Tree of Life."
I didn't want to participate in derailing this thread into that direction, and I likely would end up in a squabble.
But I'll give it a sentence or two and then not participate in any back-and-forth on it: We regard the Tree of Life as the universal pattern (translate as, "best known to humanity") for interpreting conciousness on all levels, actualized and nonactualized. Therefore, anything that actually, authentically relates to human consciousness is most definitely expressible through the Tree.
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That's a great answer, thanks.
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Thanks for all the Info here on this subject.
I am a european linving for 15 years now in Venezuela. Always studying Kabbala, Tarot, Reiki ect. .
Recently I knew some people who practice Santeria here and I thought it would be interesting to study the subject a little. These people seems to practice the "white" santeria ( I have really no interest in the Black way) thats why I am interested to know something more from this religion.
I was looking for some information in relation with Kabbala to understand the the Orishas and what they stand for and I found your forum
Very interesting by the way.
I have a question about the 776 1/2 Book that is mentioned here. Does the book contains also correlation of the 22 paths for Santeria ? If so could you mention them here please ?
Thanks again for this great forum and the work that is done here.
Saludos -
Thanks a lot for the fast reply.