Sin No More
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93
Well this is history in the making, right in time for 2012.
I believe the main thrust of Thelema is that there is no Sin.
Here's what old man Crowley himself had to say about this:
"Again we learn the permanence of the Nature of a Star. We are not to judge by temporary circumstances, but to penetrate to the True Nature.
It has naturally been objected by economists that our Law, in declaring every man and every woman to be a star, reduces society to its elements, and makes hierarchy or even democracy impossible. The view is superficial. Each star has a function in its galaxy proper to its own nature. Much mischief has come from our ignorance in insisting, on the contrary, that each citizen is fit for any and every social duty. But also our Law teaches that a star often veils itself from its nature. Thus the vast bulk of humanity is obsessed by an abject fear of freedom; the principal objections hitherto urged against my Law have been those of people who cannot bear to imagine the horrors which would result if they were free to do their own wills. The sense of sin, shame, self-distrust, this is what makes folk cling to Christianity-slavery. People believe in a medicine just in so far as it is nasty; the metaphysical root of this idea is in sexual degeneracy of the masochistic type. Now "the Law is for all"; but such defectives will refuse it, and serve us who are free with a fidelity the more dog-like as the simplicity of our freedom denotes their abjection."~New Comment to AL II,58.
"Mohammed's point of view is wrong too; but he needs no such sharp correction as 'Jesus.' It is his face -- his outward semblance -- that is to be covered with His wings. The tenets of Islam, correctly interpreted, are not far from our Way of Life and Light and Love and Liberty. This applies especially to the secret tenets. The external creed is mere nonsense suited to the intelligence of the peoples among whom it was promulgated; but even so, Islam is Magnificent in practice. Its code is that of a man of courage and honour and self-respect; contrasting admirably with the cringing cowardice of the damnation-dodging Christians with their unmanly and dishonest acceptance of vicarious sacrifice, and their currish conception of themselves as 'born in sin,' 'miserable sinners' with 'no health in us."~New Comment to AL III,52.
"It is we of Thelema who truly love and respect Woman, who hold her sinless and shameless even as we are; and those who say that we despise Her are those who shrink from the flash of our falchions as we strike from Her limbs their foul fetters."~New Comment to AL III,55.
Anyone?
~Blessed be
In Lak'ech Ala K'in
~93
Moonwolf
Frater Sabaechit
Ron Adams -
Do What Thou Wilt Shall Be the Whole of the Law
"Well this is history in the making, right in time for 2012.
I believe the main thrust of Thelema is that there is no Sin. "
Yes, I believe one of the main tenants of Thelema is that the only sin is that of restricting one's own True Will.
I'm curious as to what you mean by 'history in the making', though, specifically with the year 2012. Are you suggesting that some sweeping world-wide event will occur in which man kind unanimously adopts Thelema? Or, perhaps I'm just putting words in your mouth.
Love is the Law, Love Under Will
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@fraterlvf said
"Do What Thou Wilt Shall Be the Whole of the Law
Yes, I believe one of the main tenants of Thelema is that the only sin is that of restricting one's own True Will.
I'm curious as to what you mean by 'history in the making', though, specifically with the year 2012. Are you suggesting that some sweeping world-wide event will occur in which man kind unanimously adopts Thelema? Or, perhaps I'm just putting words in your mouth.
Love is the Law, Love Under Will"
93
Yes, Frater LVF, I basically was commenting on President Elect Obama signifying this historical shift. As for 2012, the whole point of this is what I believe learning to live in the Moment, the Now, Presence, which I see tied right into True Will. Its hard to live your true will if you live it in the past or project it into the future, I believe.Yes, I think positive discoveries await us, and especially as we approach 2012. For some reason, I do believe the ancient Mayans were onto something. Perhaps their calendar predicted the cycles its takes a planet to become conscious?
It is better to see life in its perfection than pick it apart because of its flaws. I won't even mention the religion that does this the most, because that's a moot point. Thanks for your comments.
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@Frater Sabaechi said
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@fraterlvf said
"Do What Thou Wilt Shall Be the Whole of the LawYes, I believe one of the main tenants of Thelema is that the only sin is that of restricting one's own True Will.
I'm curious as to what you mean by 'history in the making', though, specifically with the year 2012. Are you suggesting that some sweeping world-wide event will occur in which man kind unanimously adopts Thelema? Or, perhaps I'm just putting words in your mouth.
Love is the Law, Love Under Will"
93
Yes, Frater LVF, I basically was commenting on President Elect Obama signifying this historical shift. As for 2012, the whole point of this is what I believe learning to live in the Moment, the Now, Presence, which I see tied right into True Will. Its hard to live your true will if you live it in the past or project it into the future, I believe.Yes, I think positive discoveries await us, and especially as we approach 2012. For some reason, I do believe the ancient Mayans were onto something. Perhaps their calendar predicted the cycles its takes a planet to become conscious?
It is better to see life in its perfection than pick it apart because of its flaws. I won't even mention the religion that does this the most, because that's a moot point. Thanks for your comments."
Im suspicious of anyone who makes claims of the sort that (a) we are moving towards cosmic consciousness/Now-consciousness or anything of the sort and/or (b) 2012 and the calendar of the Maya, etc. Both seem quite spurious if you ask me.
IAO131
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Well if I am one of those ignorant people then I do feel blessed. I've been using the Mayan and Dreamspell calendar since 1992 and it has assisted me in everything, from magick to ritual to empowerment.
Don't knock something if you haven't tried it. And yes, after December 21, 2012 life goes on as we know it, whether some people evolve or not. I never said I was into it in blind faith. Just as I use the Thelemic calendar and my friend Mark's Wakin Tzolkin. I just love exploring alternative views. That's part of my path.
I've enjoyed reading Jose Arguelles, Carl Johan Calleman and John Major Jenkins work on the subject, plus a whole array of writers like Daniel Pinchbeck, Gregg Braden, Peter Russell, Jean Houston, in a collection of 2012 essays published by Sounds True, called The Mystery of 2012. One particular writer, I believe imo is Thelemic, is Sharon Rose in her piece all 2012, Galactic Alignment, and the Great Goddess: Reflections on Isis and the Sacred Science of the Egyptians. I highly recommend reading it.
Now, do you believe in True Love?
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Earlier this year, there was an article in an astronomical journal that makes a strong case that the most popular way of correlating the Mayan calendar to the Gregorian calendar is off by something like 104 years. Thus, we may have to waiit until 2116 for the baktun ending that many believe is coming in 2012.
(The above link takes you to the brief abstract of this article. I think you'd have to go through a library that subscribes to the journal to see the whole article. FYI, any public library should be able to get it via interlibrary loan...)
Steve
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@Frater Sabaechi said
"Now, do you believe in True Love?"
There is a lot of semantic ambiguity in that phrase - can you please elaborate on your definition of "True Love"?
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@fraterlvf said
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@Frater Sabaechi said
"Now, do you believe in True Love?"There is a lot of semantic ambiguity in that phrase - can you please elaborate on your definition of "True Love"?"
Just a phrase that I was drawn to actually because synchronistically its the title of tonight's Brotherhood episode "The course of true love never did run smooth."
Maybe True Love is just a cliche, like finding one's true love. Maybe there is a deeper aspect of true love that is an archeptypal energy. You may or may not see where I am going with this, but I think its worth exploring people's impressions.
My partner is my true love.
His true love and dedication actually won the war.
True love fostered his ambitions and made him a success.
She lost her true love.
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@Frater Sabaechi said
"Maybe True Love is just a cliche, like finding one's true love. Maybe there is a deeper aspect of true love that is an archeptypal energy. You may or may not see where I am going with this, but I think its worth exploring people's impressions."
Nope, I really don't. I am going to retire from this thread, as I believe that it is something of a ramble.
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@fraterlvf said
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@Frater Sabaechi said
"Maybe True Love is just a cliche, like finding one's true love. Maybe there is a deeper aspect of true love that is an archeptypal energy. You may or may not see where I am going with this, but I think its worth exploring people's impressions."Nope, I really don't. I am going to retire from this thread, as I believe that it is something of a ramble."
Well I see your point and respect your retiring from this thread. I understand that it might appear a ramble for you, but for me I approach it in a spirit of inquiry.
One question I might ask, if the phrase True Love appears as a semantic ambiguity, why doesn't True Will? Or does it?
And perhaps this relates to what I was getting at with this thread's original premise about Sin No More. Maybe we don't have a word for such a state? Bliss? Enlightenment? Well then, maybe we don't have a Western word for what it means to live with No Sin. Perfection just doesnt' come close as it implies more ambiguity.
Anyone else?
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@Frater Sabaechi said
"One question I might ask, if the phrase True Love appears as a semantic ambiguity, why doesn't True Will? Or does it?"
Maybe becuase the phrase 'True Love' is used often in many contexts and you just threw it out there while True Will has its many explanations by Crowley in multiple places...
This thread indeed seems to be an irrelevant rambling like the Crystal skulls thread, but thats just my opinion.
"And perhaps this relates to what I was getting at with this thread's original premise about Sin No More. Maybe we don't have a word for such a state? Bliss? Enlightenment? Well then, maybe we don't have a Western word for what it means to live with No Sin. Perfection just doesnt' come close as it implies more ambiguity."
Maybe its just called normality? Viewing the world as plagued by sin should become the exception, not the norm, I think.
IAO131
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@Aum418 said
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@Frater Sabaechi said
"One question I might ask, if the phrase True Love appears as a semantic ambiguity, why doesn't True Will? Or does it?"Maybe becuase the phrase 'True Love' is used often in many contexts and you just threw it out there while True Will has its many explanations by Crowley in multiple places...
This thread indeed seems to be an irrelevant rambling like the Crystal skulls thread, but thats just my opinion.
"And perhaps this relates to what I was getting at with this thread's original premise about Sin No More. Maybe we don't have a word for such a state? Bliss? Enlightenment? Well then, maybe we don't have a Western word for what it means to live with No Sin. Perfection just doesnt' come close as it implies more ambiguity."
Maybe its just called normality? Viewing the world as plagued by sin should become the exception, not the norm, I think.
IAO131"
Well with all due respect I didn't just throw it out there. And I don't believe this world is normal just because religions and politics think humans are flawed.
Why should I just treat the phrase True Will as exceptional just because Crowley said so? Why should the Book of the Law be considered exceptional say just as much or more than the Tao Te Ching?
To just accept something because some authority type says its true is still blind faith, which to me is part of the old Aeonic stuff.
Since I was offering FiliusBeastia some links to track down to get more information on the Crystal Skull, I see no reason in you lumping this thread and that thread together as irrelevant. Its ok for me if it isn't relevant to you. Do people really get anywhere in their discoveries and personal inquiries just based merely on agreement? I doubt it.
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@Frater Sabaechi said
"Why should I just treat the phrase True Will as exceptional just because Crowley said so?"
No reason at all... unless you identify yourself as a Thelemite and/or want to discuss Thelemic matters in a group setting such as this.
"Why should the Book of the Law be considered exceptional say just as much or more than the Tao Te Ching?"
No reason at all... unless you identify yourself as a Thelemite. (The Book of the Law and its message really is kind of what the whole Thelemic thing is about, eh?)
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@Jim Eshelman said
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@Frater Sabaechi said
"Why should I just treat the phrase True Will as exceptional just because Crowley said so?"No reason at all... unless you identify yourself as a Thelemite and/or want to discuss Thelemic matters in a group setting such as this.
"Why should the Book of the Law be considered exceptional say just as much or more than the Tao Te Ching?"
No reason at all... unless you identify yourself as a Thelemite. (The Book of the Law and its message really is kind of what the whole Thelemic thing is about, eh?)"
Yes, I do consider myself a Thelemite and have been since 1984. I am seeing Thelema as something more than just a dogma and just something to follow.
I mean even though Frater Achad questioned the Great Beast, doesn't mean that he didn't go on to do his part to expand the New Aeon.
I believe Thelema is an organic attempt to look at the world and universe in a fresh, expanded way, maybe kinda like Quantum Physics (which has developed since 1904 too). But yes, I do get your point and I am not implying that this is not a thelemic group, just asking questions in this thread to extrapolate on my ideas.
If there is no sin, then what wrong do people really do to one another? I rather see it as each of us grappling and exploring to find our place in the universe, aka our true will and true love.
I came over here and joined because of being told what a great group this was. It seems that you've done a good job, even with the cult of personalities and the threater of the absurd in our world today.
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Crowley also wrote: "The only sin in the universe is collision."
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@Sphynx said
"Crowley also wrote: "The only sin in the universe is collision.""
IIRC he said that about crime, not sin.
The Book of the Law is quite clear: There is sin in the Thelemic worldview, and its nature is restriction.