Question on Liber L
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@Aum418 said
"Its a sad thing that women cant take pride in being victorious in a cock fight
"excuse me? please do not generalize. any woman can win your cock fight.
remember, all the power is given to the scarlet woman. power belongs to the severity (feminine) pillar
@Aum418 said
"Im sorry to say that you sound utterly condescending and I find that disgusting. You think you can tell anotehr they have a long way to go because they dont agree with your 'hippie' interpretation of things?"
excuse me again but you have been dismissive and condescending to froclown and you are being rude to asraiya. take that into account.
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@Sphynx said
"You have quoted Liber OZ.
Liber OZ is a piece of paper.
It is also some man's idea of how things should be (and then he wrote it down on OZ paper).
So what?"93...
So what? Well, since we are having a discussion about Thelema, I am using thelemic documents. If we were talking about PCs, I'd pull out documents on Windows, or what have you. If you want to talk Thelema, we have to use common language and common references (the thelemic writings).
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"As for Froclown I'll confess my contempt stemmed a bit from disgust with his love for this Gor philosophy stuff that has men enslaving women in a some fictional utopia..."
True, true, true. In Gor men enslave women, and women are thrilled to be enslaved. Works out really well for the men, since the women are like adoring dogs that love their master, no matter what.
The problem is when women are independent cats and don't obey. Like with cats, there's frustration when you can't control them.
I don't see why everyone is pointing a finger at people being condescending. If you disagree, you condescend. I am condescending in the way I view the world of Gor.
It's a nice fantasy. And if I were a guy or a trapped woman, I would love to be abused and dominated if it felt really good sexually or otherwise. The problem is, is that I can't see myself feeling good being abused, humiliated, dominated etc.
I'd want respect and want to be valued.
Hard to value a person who is a love slave as a fellow star. Hard to see her as someone who is equal to you. If you are both stars I guess you'd have to see her as a star of less magnitude. Yes, I am being sarcastic.
OK, Froward. Live the life you lead in the manner you would like. Good luck finding a Gor world, and women who are like Gor females. Actually, animals in heat are like that. Hormones take over, can't exercise choice.
Problem is, is that women like that, aren't the ones men want. They want a confident hottie with the pick of all the other guys. A woman who could choose any guy, and chooses you above all.
As a woman, I would like to say, that knowing you are pretty girl gives you a lot of power. You know you are desired by kids of 11 to men of a much older age. It's kind of embarrassing, at the same time, dangerously thrilling.
I am way past being a girl, but I know lust (Key
is a powerful force.
Men subdue women because they fear the effect women have on men.
Men are enslaved by their lust and they blame women for it. Yet men delight also in the surrender to it.
Think I'll abandon this thread.
Seems the chakra that we are talking about is the one that mixes sex and power together. Can't have one without the other, and it is the spiritual force that makes the world go round.
93
and in L.V.X.,
chrys333 -
why must everyone focus on the slave aspect of Gor?
My interest is focused more on the caste system and the specialization of social tasks, rather than labor task. The difference being that with labor you have a job and then you have your life proper, even if a greater portion of time is spend working the so called free time is still the life proper. Where as in a feudal or caste system such as on Gor their is no division in your life between labor tasks and social identity, ones whole being is wrapped up in ones caste. Thus ones caste is one whole life, it is ones whole WILL, and as each is focused on his or her caste, so too is each cast as a whole focused on the homestone. Thus the pursuit of ones awn WILL to excel in ones Caste, is also worknig towards the common good of the city as a whole.
As for the sexism inherent in GOR, there is an example of how Thelema can improve Gor, "let woman me girt with a sword". Their is no inherent reason why strong women should not keep men as slaves, and indeed this is not unheard of in the books of Gor. Also their are women who hold the caste stations of men rather than as Free women, it could be her father had no living sons and she must pass on the family honor and caste to her sons, for example. Further I only stated that the thelemic adaption of Gor use slavery as a means to train adepts for the ordeal of the abyss, as their is a similarity between totally surrendering oneself to a master, and pouring ones life blood out into the cup of Babalon. Their is no reason that men should not the submissive in this case, Crowley submitted to Leah's sadism to eat her shit, and he submitted to be Sodomized by Neuburg, to name but to examples of his use of masochism and/or submission to prepare for the ordeal.
This willed submission is not the same as humbling oneself or attempting to duck out of ones WILL, by appeal to ethical codes, obligations, or duties to others. The difference is between a soldier who WILLs to obey his superior officer's orders vs a soldier who is a afraid to fight and makes excused to justify his cowardice and desertion. (Oh this is an immoral war, it is wrong to kill, I have no right to kill, they have a right not to be killed, all such clap trap, the yapping of the dogs that fill the Pit called because, if you listen to that noise you will never act, you will just justify fear, which is not only a cause of failure, fear is failure itself)
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As far as being condescending, is condescension off limits? I should think not, if it is your WILL then do it, the only reason for passing a law against condescending speech is that you think my feelings or some ones feelings need protected, I am insulted more by belief that I need protected and I need others to pull their punches, that I am by the punches themselves. Any time you restrict yourself or put a restriction in general to protect others, you are declaring that you believe some one is less than worthy or able to handle, the full brunt force of others, no holds barred. That is insulting to others. It is also protecting the weak, whom nature would have destroyed. Why should you want to help preserve the Weak whom the We are asked to stomp down and tread upon, to strike low and hard and to hell with them. Where then does the liberal-hippie morals that protect the weak and stem from a resentment of Power. It must come from then from a feeling that ones self is powerless and enslaved, and thus an empathy with the weak, the low, the base, the slave, and a resentment that orders on hatred for the noble master, the Power virtue, and the warrior caste. All of which is exactly what Thelema opposes.
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Hi Froclown,
Can't seem to let go. You prod me on. Ox goad?
I agree that people use the concept of ethics to postpone action. (For qabalists only: Hmmm. Lamed is ox goad, is karma, is action.) And it is ridiculous avoid a decision by throwing up a concept like "Thou shalt not kill is one of the 10 commandments," when the real issue is you don't want to kill anything or are too scared to, or think you will get punished for it.
So, let's look at caste and designed function for certain people. You know, like in India -http://www.csuchico.edu/~cheinz/syllabi/asst001/spring98/india.htm.
What's wrong with this picture?
I still don't get it, Froward. How does this have to do with knowing your own True Will? Why are you defining Thelema to us? Isn't this your own view of Thelema? One part of it?
The caste system sounds as if there is no will, just biological imperatives. You know, you're a cow. You eat plants. You're a predator; you eat other living things, not plants. Can a cow choose to chase down a rabbit and gobble it down? Can an eagle decide to eat sunflower seeds?
“She rides astride the Beast; in her left hand she holds the reins, representing the passion which unites them. In her right she holds aloft the cup, the Holy Grail aflame with love and death. In this cup are mingled the elements of the sacrament of the Aeon” (Book of Thoth). In a more general sense, Babalon represents the liberated woman and the full expression of the sexual impulse. "
Does this sound like somebody from Gor?
I've read these books. I don't think so.
I understand the knowing oneself and one's purpose, and delighting in it, being content in it. Nice situation if you achieve it, or are born into it, like in Gor. But that's not HOW IT IS. How it is, is we all go stumbling blindly, doing the best we can and get hints to guide us up and down our path, shedding all the non-authentic parts of ourselves, until we are truly ourselves.
It's not that easy, Froclown. It's hard work, and damned uncomfortable at times.
Maybe now, I can abandon this thread.
Love and L.V.X.,
chrys333 -
@Froclown said
"As far as being condescending, is condescension off limits? I should think not, if it is your WILL then do it, the only reason for passing a law against condescending speech is that you think my feelings or some ones feelings need protected, I am insulted more by belief that I need protected and I need others to pull their punches, that I am by the punches themselves."
lol, you have a point but fyi i was not defending you. i was pointing out to aum418 that he's doing the same thing he's disgusted of.
@Froclown said
"Any time you restrict yourself or put a restriction in general to protect others, you are declaring that you believe some one is less than worthy or able to handle, the full brunt force of others, no holds barred. That is insulting to others. "
yes, i agree! - thelema 101
in any case, this thread has gone a little awry... or so it seems. -
93,
You've got an interesting vision, Froclown, but it seems to me your overlooking a glaring contradiction; you're arguing for a caste-based society of warriors.
Why is there so much emphasis on violence and conquest in this utopian society of yours? No caste-based society that I am aware of is made up of only a warrior caste. Is there, then, no legal system? No venue for the resolving of disputes besides brute violence?
It seems to me that in practice, such a system would result in something like what we see in Zimbabwe - rule of the strong rather than the qualified.
Sounds lovely. Cholera, anyone?
Love=Law
- C
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Chris, I think you put the finger on exactly why a caste system would be beneficial. It is hard to discern a proper niche in which to exercise ones WILL, because their is no attempt whatsoever to discern in general what classes of WILL expression are common and create social roles that approximate these classes of WILL. Nor is their a panel of experts that analyze the character of each individual to aid them in the discipline and self-awareness necessary to discern where one fits in that system of orbits.
While it is true that each star has its own unique orbit, just as each electron has its own unique orbital shell around the atom, it is also the case than their are different type of orbits, which each electron due to its unique energy and momentum will be able to fill.
An S orbital (caste) is a simple surface of a sphere, where as a P orbital in like a dumb bell shape. Thus a caste system is preparing possible orbital shells, such that those with a Will to fill them will have some where to express that WILL. I see no harm in that, and much good. Better than our system that has no scientific means to plan society in harmony with the individuals that occur their. We have lots of pegs with no holes and holes with no pegs.
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@Sphynx said
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@ThatNarrowFellow said
"Why is there so much emphasis on violence and conquest in this utopian society of yours?"Why is there so much emphasis on violence and conquest in Liber AL?"
93,
I expect because it was written during the Victorian era, and during a time when Christianity and turn the other cheek were far more ubiquitous than they are today.
We should not follow the Christians' error of refusing to recognize that our holy book was written in a specific time and place. It seems like some people would like to say, "Everyone's got their own individual true Will, but it has to be violent and orgiastic." This is a mistake.
Love=Law
- C
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Hi Froclown,
You are concerned with people who don't fit in and have no place. You think a caste system will eliminate that. I get that. It is a noble reason.
But freedom means freedom to fail, Froclown.
A caste system might be OK if it was implemented without the injustice of powerful people managing to keep their power by putting others in the wrong caste. Also, powerful people keep their own families in the best possible castes.
Ideas are great. Implementing ideas sometimes results in living nightmare situations. Look at the War on Poverty creating a welfare underclass that spanned generations.
Never know how things turn out.
Glad you gave me perspective on your desire to have us all embrace a Gor life.
In L.V.X.,
chrys333 -
"Let this formula be accepted by every government. Experts will immediately be appointed to work out, when need arises, the details of the True Will of every individual, and even that of every corporate body whether social or commercial, while a judiciary will arise to determine the equity in the case of apparently conflicting claims. (Such cases will become progressively more rare as adjustment is attained.) All appeal to precedent and authority, the deadwood of the Tree of Life, will be abolished, and strictly scientific standards will be the sole measure by which the executive power shall order the people. The absolute rule of the state shall be a function of the absolute liberty of each individual will."
If this does not imply a caste system, designed by scientific method, I have no idea what this is supposed to mean.
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Froclown 93,
A caste system, whether it is the classic Hindu arrangement or a somewhat less restrictive European class system, is not based remotely on scientific principles. It is based on an extreme form of precedent and authority.
"Your father worked on a farm with his hands - thus, you are unable to appreciate the finer things of art, and life, and spirituality, which are henceforth denied you," is not a scientific statement.
Perhaps you're taking Liber L II 57-58 : "He that is righteous shall be righteous still; he that is filthy shall be filthy still.....the kings of the earth shall be Kings forever," in this passage's narrowest sense. The total passage, though, clearly implies a spiritual perception, not a program for a kind of Thelemofascism on the mundane level of social organization. To assume it requires such a soul-crunching societal structure flies in the face of the primary theme of individual evolution outlined in the Book.
93 93/93,
EM
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@Froclown said
""Let this formula be accepted by every government. Experts will immediately be appointed to work out, when need arises, the details of the True Will of every individual, and even that of every corporate body whether social or commercial, while a judiciary will arise to determine the equity in the case of apparently conflicting claims. (Such cases will become progressively more rare as adjustment is attained.) All appeal to precedent and authority, the deadwood of the Tree of Life, will be abolished, and strictly scientific standards will be the sole measure by which the executive power shall order the people. The absolute rule of the state shall be a function of the absolute liberty of each individual will."
If this does not imply a caste system, designed by scientific method, I have no idea what this is supposed to mean."
Then you have no clue what you are talking about.
IAO131
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thelema implies that we all have a unique WILL and that we can not or must not act outside of those limits that are part of our natural being.
Thus we need a social system that recognizes the limits of each individual and does not attempt to push people into roles they are not suited for.
A fish's WILL is to swim in the water this it is classified in the caste of aquatic creatures, thus we know fish swim and can not fly, so we don't pressure fish out of the water, nor attempt to throw them in the air.
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93,
Any social system that forces me to be what it presupposes I am, is about as unThelemic as it could possibly be.
93 93/93,
EM
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So what Edward said, meant what I wished to say, but didn't.
Caste system and Thelema. Doesn't seem logical to me.
chrys333 -
allow me then to quote a few lines and paragraphs from a lesser know essay written by Crowley
Groans from the Padded Cell
(The Minority Report of the Editorial Rooms).... Today all this is absolutely changed. Every important branch of work is so specialized that a man must give his whole life to his particular job for 40 years or more before he is capable of holding his own in it. Such a man must obviously be chosen from the start on the ground of inclination and capacity. He must be allowed ample leisure. He must be secured freedom from all worries and anxiety, or he will never arrive at competence. A university education is not nearly enough. It is only a general ground-work. When a man leaves a university he wants at least 10 years uninterrupted work in his particular line before he even begins to succeed in it. In other words, the complexity of civilization demands an elaborate caste system. For one thing, the habit of authority is absolutely necessary to any one who is to fill a position of responsibility. Put a man who has done mental work all his life into an important position. He inevitably becomes a "Jack in office," harsh, overbearing, and tyrannical. On the other hand, if you take a boy and give him well trained servants, he will, when he becomes a man, get things done with perfect suavity and good feeling and absence of fiction.1 This is why you can take a boy from Eton or Winchester and send him out to rule a province in India. The "Competition-wallah," the boy of no birth or breeding who obtains a position in the Indian Civil Service by intellectual merit, is a disastrous failure.
There must, however, be an end to all this talk of equality of opportunity. It will always be necessary to have a great majority of the population engaged in mechanical tasks. It is evidently quite impossible to give every man and woman even a university education. Most people have to earn their living by the time they are sixteen. Even if this experiment were possible, it would be absurd, because the university education would unfit the average individual for the necessary work of life. It is no good to teach a man political economy and Greek, and then set him to make rivets in a boiler factory for the rest of his life. ........ Now undoubtedly much mischief is wrought by having a caste which is hereditary and nothing more, because the said degenerates and imbeciles interfere with the working of the social machine. Our business is to get the right man in the right place; and the hard and fast rule of primogeniture has in many cases worked badly. One may concede that ultimately it is bound to work badly is all cases. ....
... What then is the ideal form of government? The greatest of all the political lessons of history is that society is founded on the family, and the family on the land. A strong agrarian class is the best defense against invasion, physical or moral. "A bold peasantry, its country's pride, when once destroyed, can never be supplied." There is something in the contact with earth and air and water and sun which makes men vigorous. All strong and stable states have had Cincinnatus for a unit. The power of England has always lain in the landed nobility and gentry. Each great estate has been the nucleus of a peasantry with "soul" -- with a peculiar pride in itself. The lords of the land, great or little, were also the fathers of the people. Each took a particular and individual interest in each of his tenants....
... And it is the soul which determines the action of a true man. A nation swayed wholly by economic considerations is a nation lost alike to God and to man. "Ill fares the land, to hastening ills a prey, When wealth accumulates and men decay."
The first business of government is to guard the hardihood of the race. So we must see to it that every child is healthy and well-fed, inured to sport, to hardship within certain bounds. The spirit must be free, the passions strong and well regulated, the intellect unhampered by old wives' fables. We must assure to every one the first necessaries of life, shelter, food, warmth, and the easy exercise of the power of reproduction, without shame or sentimentality.
We must make a firm, almost a paternal bond, between the "lord" and his dependents. If an employer were soundly whipped whenever one of his men or women had a preventable sickness, it would change things considerably! The happiest, the most healthy, the most prosperous class in recent history were the slaves in the South before the Civil War, wherever the owner was a decent Southern Gentleman, and not a Yankee nigger-driver with no interest in the slaves beyond dollars. If America is to survive, nay, to become a nation, it must be by the development of an enlightened feudalism....Let me repeat that last line, it must be by the development of an enlightened
feudalism"Look up the whole essay and compare this with the Feudal system that is the basis of Gorean city structure, and you see where I am coming from.
Also contrast These very clear views, with the this modern liberal misrepresentation of Thelema.
