Satan and the Qliphoth
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@Law said
"Well, those answers had almost nothing to do with my question.... Uh so how exactly does satan apply to the qliphoth?"
Ah, why didn't you say so? That's a straightforward question. And it has nothing to do with Thelema per se. It's basic Qabalah. You can find the basic information several places, including Crowley's 777 and my own 776 1/2 - but perhaps it would be useful to give a little more explanation than is usually given.
In the same fashion that Qabalah establsihes a superior class of angel called Archangel, ranking and (to use a simple idea) ruling over other angles of the same class, so to the Q'lippoth have a superior class of being called Prince, ranking and ruling over other beings of this class. In Col. CVIII of 777 you can find a listing of the Q'lippothic Princes of the Sephiroth. In 776 1/2 I give this and an alternate attribution in Cols. 71-72 of the last (2.0) version, though this numeration will be changed in a forthcoming publication.
According to one of these tables, Satan is one of the Q'lippothic Princes of Kether. According to the other attribution list, He is that of Chesed. For the purpose of answering your question, it doesn't matter - the answer is the same. It is that Satan, insofar as the name is used in relation to the Q'lippoth, is the name one of several Princes who are the (Briatic) equivalent of archangels to the (Yetziratic) hordes of Q'lippoth. Thus, he has essentially the same significance as Belial, Asmoday, Moloch, or several others.
There is another sense, related but quite distinctive. Satan is one of the four "Princes of Darkness," introduced in the Abramelin work (among other places) as reigning over all the evil of the world. Satan, Lucifer, Leviathan, and Belial are a set that have a particular role in the Abramelin operation, and are part of a larger Qabalistic cosmogony. I've written here and there, and lectured spottily on them - there is a very gerat deal in my 6=5 diaries and later - but I want to emphasize that this is separate from your question about Satan and the Q'lippoth (properly called).
" Its been said that some demons "ball themselves up" woth other demons, I think thats how crowley described it, in the big blue brick, is satan some conglomeration of goetic demons? It was mentioned in the goetia that some demons are "very obedient to lucifer" so.....what? Could I get any straight answer?
"Straight answrs start with straight questions. This post is the first time that you have asked, "How exactly does Satan apply to the qliphoth [sic]?" Instead, you asked about the Thelemic/qliphothic/ etc interpretation of satan?" I didn't answer that because there is no anser. There's no Thelemic interpretation of Satan. (Aleister Crowley had a few, but The Book of the Law doesn't mention Him once!) You were insightful enough to recognize you perhaps hadn't worded your question properly. Good! That gives a clear area for you to work on.
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well....actually, if you look at the original post, it was kind of stated there.........Well any way, a band that I listened to called TOOL started what they admited was a "lunar lodge" or what I understood was pertaining to the reverse side of the tree of life, or below malkuth (what ever that means, I'll probably never know
) so by the diagram I see in "the world of the kliphoth" by thelema press- the 1st sepher would be "dark kether" so to speak, and so on and so forth, so what exactly would the point of a lunar lodge be? How exactly would one even begin to start up/down the tree of life? -
@Law said
"well....actually, if you look at the original post, it was kind of stated there........."
I did look. (I was very careful to look before saying, 'you never asked this question.') If it's "kinda there," I can still barely see it with 20/20 hindsight. You have to come out and ask it!
This is a school. One of the basic things we teach is now to apply the processes of thought. Among the most important things in the processes of thought are the ability and will to use language well, and communication with intention. The quality of an answer is dependent on the quality of the question.
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Exactly how do you construe "this" by which I take you to mean this forum, as a school? Or do you? In any case I still have no bloody idea what the hell anything on this sight has to do with applying processes of thought. for all the thousands of Dollars of my hard (and it is hard) earned money I pour into these obscure and ultimately useless texts that cover the virtual shelves of the internet, I havent gotten any real answers as to how this universe works at all, not even any selfish answers on black magic that I so desperetly desire for obtaining personal gain. Nothing. Im really starting to think that all this is a lot of crap and that all these demons and gods and all the rest is just some bad joke that people carry out in order to alleviate the embarassement of someone of any ability actually finding out that they fell for all this in the first place. the fact that i post a question here and get 20 odd conflicting answers is just more fuel to the fire that I will eventually throw all my occult texts into. In any case, this isnt a stab at you, jim, but..............damn
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@Law said
"Exactly how do you construe "this" by which I take you to mean this forum, as a school? Or do you?"
This forum is owned and operated by College of Thelema. It is a casual, experimental "extension classroom" for C.O.T. (This has been discussed many times on this forum in the past.) Teachers, students, and general public are invited to meet in a lightly-moderated contextto discuss a variety of things.
But despite its casualness and relative lack of conventional structure, it is still very much part of C.O.T. and its instruction.
"In any case I still have no bloody idea what the hell anything on this sight has to do with applying processes of thought. for all the thousands of Dollars of my hard (and it is hard) earned money I pour into these obscure and ultimately useless texts that cover the virtual shelves of the internet, I havent gotten any real answers as to how this universe works at all,"
That comes from actual initiation, not from reading.
"not even any selfish answers on black magic that I so desperetly desire for obtaining personal gain. Nothing."
Yeah, those tend to be the questions that get answered least. There are several good reasons for this, of which only two are:
(1) Of those who know how to make this work, some are sufficiently wise not to lead you into shooting yourself in your foot.
(2) Of those who kow how to make this work, the rest are working it for themselves and not particularly interested in sharing.The best key, though (meaning, the one with greatest return on the investment and without strings attached), is not necessarily the quickest. It is to undertake the Great Work itself - to pursue actual initiation - without any goal for "powers." Make the goal your own spiritual progress. In the course of this, of being drawn deeper and deeper into the truth of yourself, you'll begin reorganizing your life in greater conformity with your own nature. Wealth won't be a problem.
"Im really starting to think that all this is a lot of crap and that all these demons and gods and all the rest is just some bad joke that people carry out in order to alleviate the embarassement of someone of any ability actually finding out that they fell for all this in the first place."
I think the kind of magick that is most interesting shouldn't be undertaken until one is already a full Adept. (If you didn't want that unsolicited opinion, then I apologize - I was answering what looks like a hidden question here.)
"the fact that i post a question here and get 20 odd conflicting answers is just more fuel to the fire that I will eventually throw all my occult texts into. In any case, this isnt a stab at you, jim, but..............damn"
Thanks for the last
And I understand the frustration.Actually, the diverse posts are an education in themselves. In our hunger for freedom including speech, we like to think that all opinions are equal. That's not true. All opinions deserve equal chance to be expressed (not necessarily in a particular place or time LOL!), but they aren't equal. You've gotten opinions from people not only of diverse points of view but also of diverse levels of experience, and everything that comes with that.
I have recommended for decades, and continue to recommend, that when one is ready to start in earnest then one should pick an Order or other formal, structured path of teaching, commit oneself to it, and continue until one has completed it. Don't look right or left or backwards, just keep moving forward. The internal consistency of a well-constructed single system is important. But before doing this you have to get clear on what your goals are - and to approach a system that will address them.
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A look at the answers you received that appear to you as contradictory.
You asked about Satan. Tarot answered about "the devil." That actually was non-responsive. A common error (propagated by modern culture) is to think of a single entity called The Devil and then associate a whole shopping list of characters, and that problem was made here: The Devil, as conventionally conceived, does not exist, but Satan is a specific Qabalistically-defined entity.
Steve admitted that he was giving an off-the-beaten track answer, and actually wrote about the Q'lippoth, not about Satan.
Sabaechit seems pretty candid that he's giving personal views, his own raeding of things. (And then he digressed the thread off into the direction of The Gra, and secpondary digressions from that.)
We don't get back to your topic until Shacdar's post, which is just agree within Tarot.
You then clarified your question and got one answer from me.
So really, I don't think you got eight diverse answers. You really only got a single answer on your actual question before you clarified it, and another answer after that.
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ahh yes, initiation, the vague catch all answer that implies all and like its helper elves "formula" and and "key" really tend to mean nothing in particular when closely examined. You mentioned initiation, well I went through one initiation into the OTO in Austin texas and I can honestly say that after that little costume party, though I would deny this in actual face to face conversation, I actually thought that something way over my head was just around the corner. I expected some "MIRACULOUS" spiritual awakening. Instead i got served bean dip. (no really, thats what they had after, bean dip) so I attended some cozy little get togethers and found that most of these people do just what I mentioned above. They say they have all this occult knowledge, then they wont put out. I dont give a flying fuck about banishing rituals and hexagrams and trapazohedrons etc. Show me there's something else. After about one month I left and never came back. At this point I think that if I went through some kind of "initiation" pulled out of the parking lot and got t-boned by a bus and lost both legs I would agree that there may be something to this whole magick thing, but at this point I dont see it. I tried to do some of those sigils that AOS suggests by turning a written statement into a sigil by taking out the vowels and all that-didnt work, i was told "oh, do the lbrp do that every day!" why? what is the point? -No clear answer. they say the tree of life is yours to inerpret. I say that it sounds to me as if we need to be focusing on the lower (qliphothic elements) side of tree, the reverse side or whatever your "formula" or "Key" or "initiation" told you it was ok to call it, because it contains the specters of those who have fallen from the tree in an attempt to get to the top, and also all the demons and whatever else that makes life unbearable, so it would be proper to know exactly how this side operates- lets try some goetic magick! "oh no" say the voices "that is to far advanced! You have to know what you are doing!" fuck you. I am still waiting for someone to put up or shut up, because honestly i dont see myself getting that far, what with the AA refusing to answer my letter, what have you, and my lack of being able to find an apartment where ceremony or yoga can even be considered, except for this apartment that i have now (which I thought I was so clever for picking out cuz its along Hwy 22) that happens to be 30 odd miles from my job, that I have to trek in raging North Dakota blizzards and un ploughed roads. yep still waiting. waiting for put up and all I get is shut up. As for all this "not interested in sharing" business, i dont buy it. If you were sufficiently wise, you would remember that Crowley stated that many come to this path after the "trance of sorrow" and understand lifes impermenence, therefore scoring a few thousand bucks for rent and food so one doesnt have to hassle and toil over work and hardships, and give ultimatley more time to the study of this "science" (audience laughs) would make perfect sense.....to the wise. I dont think that there are too many of these wise folks out there. As for picking a path and sticking with it...... there arent to many roads left in my life, if that hasnt become clear by this. So much for satan, or the qliphoth for that matter.
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@Law said
"ahh yes, initiation, the vague catch all answer that implies all and like its helper elves "formula" and and "key" really tend to mean nothing in particular when closely examined."
Wrong! (You are quite the angry little fellow. eh?) Initiation has a quite specific meaning.
I admit many people use it many ways. I used it here to mean a specific, sequential opening and drilling of different aspects of your consciousness on a known pattern, by known means, confirmable by known and testable consequences.
"You mentioned initiation, well I went through one initiation into the OTO in Austin texas "
While the O.T.O. is as entitled to apply the word "initiation" to its ceremonies as are the Masons, any college fraternity, or (for that matter), anyone else - and though, as an O.T.O. lodge master for many years, I happily applied the word the same way - this actually isn't what I'm talking about. (I could digress into a long explanation that what I'm about ti say isn't a put-down of O.T.O. nor a denial of any person's individual experiences, and someone will still quote me out of context and intentionally stir trouble by saying I'm on an anti-O.T.O. rampage. Such is not the case, though.)
One of many distinctions that can be made between O.T.O.'s ceremonies and true Initiation is that they do join their ceremonies with the Order-wide training and testing (step-by-step) that is essential to ensuring that you have anchored and stabilized the consequences of the ceremony. Consequences there are! - but it takes more than that.
"and I can honestly say that after that little costume party, though I would deny this in actual face to face conversation, I actually thought that something way over my head was just around the corner. I expected some "MIRACULOUS" spiritual awakening."
You ex-pected this just frojm the 0°? You need to develop patience, if that's the case.
It takes about three years for a preponderance of cells in the human body to replace themselves. One consequence of this is that it takes about 3 to 3 1/2 years of persistent, consistent application to a line of thought and practice for the body to reshape itself to a form consistent with a particular 'message.' Different systems make use of this in different ways. For example, in Temple of Thelema this is the minimum time period one can move from first initiation through a series of subsequence degrees to the Second Order (though few choose to do it in so quick a time). In O.T.O., taken at its best, one can bet to III° in about the same time, and this is a very significant threshold.
"I dont give a flying {shag} about banishing rituals and hexagrams and trapazohedrons etc."
You definitely should care about banishing rituals, given the interests you have. Until you can banish, it isn't safe to invoke. Until you can exercise basic control of the forces of the microcosm (and especially exercise basic control of yourself), it isn't safe to invoke.
"Show me there's something else."
For a decade and a half I had weekly classes in my home that ranged across many topics, many of which included pulling magical forces directly into contact with whoever was present, evoking spirits to visible appearance, and other things. The superficially impressive parts of these are the least important IMO (for example, that 'visible appearance' part), and the most important effects are the consequences of the direct contact with forces. - I mention all of this just to say, "Yeah, we've done that with witnesses, I'm not just blowing smoke."
The best effects, though, are when you can show this to yourself. This begins with a patient, systematic working on yourself first to ready the garden for planting.
"they say the tree of life is yours to inerpret."
I don't say that. I say yours is the Tree of Life to expand upon, after learning a great deal of material on its basic elements and integrating them into your psyche with meditative and other drills. Then it's yours to walk, learning, step-by-step and by your experience, what each part means.
" I say that it sounds to me as if we need to be focusing on the lower (qliphothic elements) side of tree,"
I disagree completely. Nobody at the beignning is qualified to do this. People as a whole cannot truly accept the enormous scope and power of what they have already intentionally hidden from themselves until a significant amount of growth, training, discipline, etc. have given the insight, peace, strength, etc. to approach it in both a healthy and accepting way. There is a place for it in the training - a very key and important place! - but it isn't for beginners.
"If you were sufficiently wise, you would remember that Crowley stated that many come to this path after the "trance of sorrow" and understand lifes impermenence, therefore scoring a few thousand bucks for rent and food so one doesnt have to hassle and toil over work and hardships, and give ultimatley more time to the study of this "science" (audience laughs) would make perfect sense.....to the wise. I dont think that there are too many of these wise folks out there."
LOL. We take it as we get it. Read Frater Achad's diary in Gems From the Equinox. He did some of his best work when reduced to homeless and living in a pup-tent with his wife. (Not that this is the recommended method.)
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@Cliff Oth said
"Since the TOL is already partially collapsed and unbalanced, isn't it in our best of interest to continue the collapse and plant a new one?"
I deny the premise that it is either partially collapsed or unbalanced.
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@Cliff Oth said
"Since the TOL is already partially collapsed and unbalanced, isn't it in our best of interest to continue the collapse and plant a new one?"
This statement is, I have to be honest, gibberish, given my experience of the Tree of Life. Could define for me exactly what you mean by "The Tree of Life?"
Dan
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I am in agreement with Thomas Karlsson's (Dragon Rouge) concept of Qabalah. If you are familiar with the idea, it is not a new concept nor an unfamiliar one. It is mostly a LHP concept.
Gibberish? Please explain yourself.
What is YOUR experience of the Tree of Life? Mine was, among many other things, a direct one on one study with a Rabbi.
Jim's denial is acceptable and needs no discussion, though yours is qualifying for discussion.Em hotep,
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@Jim Eshelman said
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@Cliff Oth said
"Since the TOL is already partially collapsed and unbalanced, isn't it in our best of interest to continue the collapse and plant a new one?"I deny the premise that it is either partially collapsed or unbalanced."
I think it perfectly represents the magickal universe. The Supernal Triad is necessarily protected from the imperfect microcosm. Jim has said good things in this thread, especially about doing white magick for the real treasure. It seems correct to me to say that before one can cross the abyss from 4 to 3, your karma has to be pristinely balanced and absolved with Nuit. Since she is the all, rather than self clinging, it should be obvious that any bad magicks you do to others for self gain is going to do you harm. The bad mantra is "I want all, I give nothing"; the true one is "I want nothing, I give all." This includes really any negativity towards another.
One exercise would be to recite "I want nothing, I give all" while meditating upon Sahasrara and Anahata as well as the 11th Sanskrit letter T, shaped as a sickle to cut attachment. I would suggest the banishing pentagram ritual and the middle pillar and yoga too.
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@Wizardiaoan said
"It seems correct to me to say that before one can cross the abyss from 4 to 3, your karma has to be pristinely balanced and absolved with Nuit. "
Good observation. That's a key feature of the process of becoming an Adeptus Major. The 6=5 actually lives within a world where Karma is the texture and the fabric of everyone around him or her. One can barely breathe without feeling its implications within the continuity of existence.
"Since she is the all, rather than self clinging, it should be obvious that any bad magicks you do to others for self gain is going to do you harm."
I think the single biggest consequence, though, of doing "bad magicks" is this: Setting aside all a priori judgements of good vs. bad, it remains true that if you commit your will to things that YOU define as evil, then you are forging a potent "conflict of will" within yourself - you are aligning your will with what YOU regard as contrary to what is right. This compromises integrity, splits forces, and generally cripples the will until it's healed.
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Yet, wouldn't it be to our benefit to rid ourselves of this imperfect Tree and create a new balanced Tree? Not that there is any promise that the new Tree will 'be' balanced.
Also, instead of balancing ourselves with Nuit who is of the Physical Universe I believe we should be looking towards the Duat and aligning with Nun or perhaps Amon? -
@Cliff Oth said
"Yet, wouldn't it be to our benefit to rid ourselves of this imperfect Tree and create a new balanced Tree?"
What's imperfect and what's imbalanced?
It appears to be to be a the most complete and accurate map of the actual archetecture of the components of the human psyche and their relationship to each other. (That's the basic thing it has to be in order to be useful in exploring the universe and in designing paths of initiation.)
"Also, instead of balancing ourselves with Nuit who is of the Physical Universe I believe we should be looking towards the Duat and aligning with Nun or perhaps Amon?"
I think it limiting to regard Nuit merely as the physical universe. Her basic characteristic is that She is all that is. Tuat comes in the mix.
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@Cliff Oth said
"As I was taught, Daath was originally part of the Tree and there was no Malkuth. As the Tree became imbalanced it collapsed from the Supernal down and Malkuth was created."
That's incorrect history regarding the Tree of Life among Qabalists.
The Golden Dawn does have a myth that is similar to this. The myth is that "before the Fall" the Middle Pillar was "up a notch." Tiphereth, Yesod, and Malkuth were located where Daath, Tiphereth, and Yesod currently are. According to the myth, at The Fall, the Middle Column ruptured and fell. Da'ath marks the hole.
The actual Tree matching this design is at least 200-300 years later than the Tree with which we're familiar.
Malkuth was part of the Kabbalistic pattern as far back as anything resembling Sephiroth can be traced. Da'ath appears a ways back (at least somewhat pre-Zohar, with scriptural passages at least planting seeds for it), but, as any kind of semi-stabilized fixture on the Tree, it's really quite new (about a couple of hundred years old IIRC).