Satan and the Qliphoth
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A look at the answers you received that appear to you as contradictory.
You asked about Satan. Tarot answered about "the devil." That actually was non-responsive. A common error (propagated by modern culture) is to think of a single entity called The Devil and then associate a whole shopping list of characters, and that problem was made here: The Devil, as conventionally conceived, does not exist, but Satan is a specific Qabalistically-defined entity.
Steve admitted that he was giving an off-the-beaten track answer, and actually wrote about the Q'lippoth, not about Satan.
Sabaechit seems pretty candid that he's giving personal views, his own raeding of things. (And then he digressed the thread off into the direction of The Gra, and secpondary digressions from that.)
We don't get back to your topic until Shacdar's post, which is just agree within Tarot.
You then clarified your question and got one answer from me.
So really, I don't think you got eight diverse answers. You really only got a single answer on your actual question before you clarified it, and another answer after that.
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ahh yes, initiation, the vague catch all answer that implies all and like its helper elves "formula" and and "key" really tend to mean nothing in particular when closely examined. You mentioned initiation, well I went through one initiation into the OTO in Austin texas and I can honestly say that after that little costume party, though I would deny this in actual face to face conversation, I actually thought that something way over my head was just around the corner. I expected some "MIRACULOUS" spiritual awakening. Instead i got served bean dip. (no really, thats what they had after, bean dip) so I attended some cozy little get togethers and found that most of these people do just what I mentioned above. They say they have all this occult knowledge, then they wont put out. I dont give a flying fuck about banishing rituals and hexagrams and trapazohedrons etc. Show me there's something else. After about one month I left and never came back. At this point I think that if I went through some kind of "initiation" pulled out of the parking lot and got t-boned by a bus and lost both legs I would agree that there may be something to this whole magick thing, but at this point I dont see it. I tried to do some of those sigils that AOS suggests by turning a written statement into a sigil by taking out the vowels and all that-didnt work, i was told "oh, do the lbrp do that every day!" why? what is the point? -No clear answer. they say the tree of life is yours to inerpret. I say that it sounds to me as if we need to be focusing on the lower (qliphothic elements) side of tree, the reverse side or whatever your "formula" or "Key" or "initiation" told you it was ok to call it, because it contains the specters of those who have fallen from the tree in an attempt to get to the top, and also all the demons and whatever else that makes life unbearable, so it would be proper to know exactly how this side operates- lets try some goetic magick! "oh no" say the voices "that is to far advanced! You have to know what you are doing!" fuck you. I am still waiting for someone to put up or shut up, because honestly i dont see myself getting that far, what with the AA refusing to answer my letter, what have you, and my lack of being able to find an apartment where ceremony or yoga can even be considered, except for this apartment that i have now (which I thought I was so clever for picking out cuz its along Hwy 22) that happens to be 30 odd miles from my job, that I have to trek in raging North Dakota blizzards and un ploughed roads. yep still waiting. waiting for put up and all I get is shut up. As for all this "not interested in sharing" business, i dont buy it. If you were sufficiently wise, you would remember that Crowley stated that many come to this path after the "trance of sorrow" and understand lifes impermenence, therefore scoring a few thousand bucks for rent and food so one doesnt have to hassle and toil over work and hardships, and give ultimatley more time to the study of this "science" (audience laughs) would make perfect sense.....to the wise. I dont think that there are too many of these wise folks out there. As for picking a path and sticking with it...... there arent to many roads left in my life, if that hasnt become clear by this. So much for satan, or the qliphoth for that matter.
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@Law said
"ahh yes, initiation, the vague catch all answer that implies all and like its helper elves "formula" and and "key" really tend to mean nothing in particular when closely examined."
Wrong! (You are quite the angry little fellow. eh?) Initiation has a quite specific meaning.
I admit many people use it many ways. I used it here to mean a specific, sequential opening and drilling of different aspects of your consciousness on a known pattern, by known means, confirmable by known and testable consequences.
"You mentioned initiation, well I went through one initiation into the OTO in Austin texas "
While the O.T.O. is as entitled to apply the word "initiation" to its ceremonies as are the Masons, any college fraternity, or (for that matter), anyone else - and though, as an O.T.O. lodge master for many years, I happily applied the word the same way - this actually isn't what I'm talking about. (I could digress into a long explanation that what I'm about ti say isn't a put-down of O.T.O. nor a denial of any person's individual experiences, and someone will still quote me out of context and intentionally stir trouble by saying I'm on an anti-O.T.O. rampage. Such is not the case, though.)
One of many distinctions that can be made between O.T.O.'s ceremonies and true Initiation is that they do join their ceremonies with the Order-wide training and testing (step-by-step) that is essential to ensuring that you have anchored and stabilized the consequences of the ceremony. Consequences there are! - but it takes more than that.
"and I can honestly say that after that little costume party, though I would deny this in actual face to face conversation, I actually thought that something way over my head was just around the corner. I expected some "MIRACULOUS" spiritual awakening."
You ex-pected this just frojm the 0°? You need to develop patience, if that's the case.
It takes about three years for a preponderance of cells in the human body to replace themselves. One consequence of this is that it takes about 3 to 3 1/2 years of persistent, consistent application to a line of thought and practice for the body to reshape itself to a form consistent with a particular 'message.' Different systems make use of this in different ways. For example, in Temple of Thelema this is the minimum time period one can move from first initiation through a series of subsequence degrees to the Second Order (though few choose to do it in so quick a time). In O.T.O., taken at its best, one can bet to III° in about the same time, and this is a very significant threshold.
"I dont give a flying {shag} about banishing rituals and hexagrams and trapazohedrons etc."
You definitely should care about banishing rituals, given the interests you have. Until you can banish, it isn't safe to invoke. Until you can exercise basic control of the forces of the microcosm (and especially exercise basic control of yourself), it isn't safe to invoke.
"Show me there's something else."
For a decade and a half I had weekly classes in my home that ranged across many topics, many of which included pulling magical forces directly into contact with whoever was present, evoking spirits to visible appearance, and other things. The superficially impressive parts of these are the least important IMO (for example, that 'visible appearance' part), and the most important effects are the consequences of the direct contact with forces. - I mention all of this just to say, "Yeah, we've done that with witnesses, I'm not just blowing smoke."
The best effects, though, are when you can show this to yourself. This begins with a patient, systematic working on yourself first to ready the garden for planting.
"they say the tree of life is yours to inerpret."
I don't say that. I say yours is the Tree of Life to expand upon, after learning a great deal of material on its basic elements and integrating them into your psyche with meditative and other drills. Then it's yours to walk, learning, step-by-step and by your experience, what each part means.
" I say that it sounds to me as if we need to be focusing on the lower (qliphothic elements) side of tree,"
I disagree completely. Nobody at the beignning is qualified to do this. People as a whole cannot truly accept the enormous scope and power of what they have already intentionally hidden from themselves until a significant amount of growth, training, discipline, etc. have given the insight, peace, strength, etc. to approach it in both a healthy and accepting way. There is a place for it in the training - a very key and important place! - but it isn't for beginners.
"If you were sufficiently wise, you would remember that Crowley stated that many come to this path after the "trance of sorrow" and understand lifes impermenence, therefore scoring a few thousand bucks for rent and food so one doesnt have to hassle and toil over work and hardships, and give ultimatley more time to the study of this "science" (audience laughs) would make perfect sense.....to the wise. I dont think that there are too many of these wise folks out there."
LOL. We take it as we get it. Read Frater Achad's diary in Gems From the Equinox. He did some of his best work when reduced to homeless and living in a pup-tent with his wife. (Not that this is the recommended method.)
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@Cliff Oth said
"Since the TOL is already partially collapsed and unbalanced, isn't it in our best of interest to continue the collapse and plant a new one?"
I deny the premise that it is either partially collapsed or unbalanced.
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@Cliff Oth said
"Since the TOL is already partially collapsed and unbalanced, isn't it in our best of interest to continue the collapse and plant a new one?"
This statement is, I have to be honest, gibberish, given my experience of the Tree of Life. Could define for me exactly what you mean by "The Tree of Life?"
Dan
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I am in agreement with Thomas Karlsson's (Dragon Rouge) concept of Qabalah. If you are familiar with the idea, it is not a new concept nor an unfamiliar one. It is mostly a LHP concept.
Gibberish? Please explain yourself.
What is YOUR experience of the Tree of Life? Mine was, among many other things, a direct one on one study with a Rabbi.
Jim's denial is acceptable and needs no discussion, though yours is qualifying for discussion.Em hotep,
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@Jim Eshelman said
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@Cliff Oth said
"Since the TOL is already partially collapsed and unbalanced, isn't it in our best of interest to continue the collapse and plant a new one?"I deny the premise that it is either partially collapsed or unbalanced."
I think it perfectly represents the magickal universe. The Supernal Triad is necessarily protected from the imperfect microcosm. Jim has said good things in this thread, especially about doing white magick for the real treasure. It seems correct to me to say that before one can cross the abyss from 4 to 3, your karma has to be pristinely balanced and absolved with Nuit. Since she is the all, rather than self clinging, it should be obvious that any bad magicks you do to others for self gain is going to do you harm. The bad mantra is "I want all, I give nothing"; the true one is "I want nothing, I give all." This includes really any negativity towards another.
One exercise would be to recite "I want nothing, I give all" while meditating upon Sahasrara and Anahata as well as the 11th Sanskrit letter T, shaped as a sickle to cut attachment. I would suggest the banishing pentagram ritual and the middle pillar and yoga too.
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@Wizardiaoan said
"It seems correct to me to say that before one can cross the abyss from 4 to 3, your karma has to be pristinely balanced and absolved with Nuit. "
Good observation. That's a key feature of the process of becoming an Adeptus Major. The 6=5 actually lives within a world where Karma is the texture and the fabric of everyone around him or her. One can barely breathe without feeling its implications within the continuity of existence.
"Since she is the all, rather than self clinging, it should be obvious that any bad magicks you do to others for self gain is going to do you harm."
I think the single biggest consequence, though, of doing "bad magicks" is this: Setting aside all a priori judgements of good vs. bad, it remains true that if you commit your will to things that YOU define as evil, then you are forging a potent "conflict of will" within yourself - you are aligning your will with what YOU regard as contrary to what is right. This compromises integrity, splits forces, and generally cripples the will until it's healed.
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Yet, wouldn't it be to our benefit to rid ourselves of this imperfect Tree and create a new balanced Tree? Not that there is any promise that the new Tree will 'be' balanced.
Also, instead of balancing ourselves with Nuit who is of the Physical Universe I believe we should be looking towards the Duat and aligning with Nun or perhaps Amon? -
@Cliff Oth said
"Yet, wouldn't it be to our benefit to rid ourselves of this imperfect Tree and create a new balanced Tree?"
What's imperfect and what's imbalanced?
It appears to be to be a the most complete and accurate map of the actual archetecture of the components of the human psyche and their relationship to each other. (That's the basic thing it has to be in order to be useful in exploring the universe and in designing paths of initiation.)
"Also, instead of balancing ourselves with Nuit who is of the Physical Universe I believe we should be looking towards the Duat and aligning with Nun or perhaps Amon?"
I think it limiting to regard Nuit merely as the physical universe. Her basic characteristic is that She is all that is. Tuat comes in the mix.
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@Cliff Oth said
"As I was taught, Daath was originally part of the Tree and there was no Malkuth. As the Tree became imbalanced it collapsed from the Supernal down and Malkuth was created."
That's incorrect history regarding the Tree of Life among Qabalists.
The Golden Dawn does have a myth that is similar to this. The myth is that "before the Fall" the Middle Pillar was "up a notch." Tiphereth, Yesod, and Malkuth were located where Daath, Tiphereth, and Yesod currently are. According to the myth, at The Fall, the Middle Column ruptured and fell. Da'ath marks the hole.
The actual Tree matching this design is at least 200-300 years later than the Tree with which we're familiar.
Malkuth was part of the Kabbalistic pattern as far back as anything resembling Sephiroth can be traced. Da'ath appears a ways back (at least somewhat pre-Zohar, with scriptural passages at least planting seeds for it), but, as any kind of semi-stabilized fixture on the Tree, it's really quite new (about a couple of hundred years old IIRC).
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from my notes:
On the original ToL, Yesod, the astral abode of man, is an exact reflection of the highest plane, Kether, an exactness of God.
The Fall represents mankind's and natures fall into materialism.This Fall shields us from the spiritual world and opens an Abyss between Man and the Divine. The RHP of traditional Qabalah aims to restore the original harmonic relation between man and the Divine.
The LHP fulfills and deepens the Fall. The Dark Adept continues the Fall from God to reach individual divinity.
The reason behind the Fall is often described as being hubris, man's search for knowledge and forces that originally were not meant for him to acquire. The LHP leads to a second birth, a spiritual rebirth as a god.The original ToL did not contain the material world, instead the non-Sephira Daath existed., united by paths with Kether (above), Chokmah, Binah, Geburah and Tiphareth (below).
Lucifer-Daath, the original Serpent, represents the divine force of creation that is able to carry out God's idea of creation.
Lucifer-Daath sinks down to man's level and awakens the power of creation and the sexual energy in man. Thus, man can reach the knowledge which was previously only accessible to God.The adepts of the LHP glorify the Fall and allow the destruction to be fulfilled. Leading away from the ToL and further into the ToK. the Qliphoth being veiwed as fruits of the ToK
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I see. I made the mistake of assuming that when you mentioned the "original" form of the Tree, that you were talking about actual history. I stand corrected.
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Cliff Oth, the quote is quite meanless. Where can one fall - we're at the bottom of the ToL! Well, if you want to become a god read up some Indian stories. They talk a lot about asuras - demi-gods. Their practices can't be classified as the LHP, RHP - take Shiva for example - is kundalini LHP, RHP? It depends on how you use it and it certainly makes you a demi-god.
The sexual centre is Yesod, not Daath. Though I read that they connect in the 4 worlds i.e. Assiah Daath- Yetzirath Yesod; Yetzirath Daath- Briah Yesod; Briah Daath- Atziluth Yesod.
