Satan and the Qliphoth
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@Cliff Oth said
"Since the TOL is already partially collapsed and unbalanced, isn't it in our best of interest to continue the collapse and plant a new one?"
I deny the premise that it is either partially collapsed or unbalanced.
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@Cliff Oth said
"Since the TOL is already partially collapsed and unbalanced, isn't it in our best of interest to continue the collapse and plant a new one?"
This statement is, I have to be honest, gibberish, given my experience of the Tree of Life. Could define for me exactly what you mean by "The Tree of Life?"
Dan
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I am in agreement with Thomas Karlsson's (Dragon Rouge) concept of Qabalah. If you are familiar with the idea, it is not a new concept nor an unfamiliar one. It is mostly a LHP concept.
Gibberish? Please explain yourself.
What is YOUR experience of the Tree of Life? Mine was, among many other things, a direct one on one study with a Rabbi.
Jim's denial is acceptable and needs no discussion, though yours is qualifying for discussion.Em hotep,
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@Jim Eshelman said
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@Cliff Oth said
"Since the TOL is already partially collapsed and unbalanced, isn't it in our best of interest to continue the collapse and plant a new one?"I deny the premise that it is either partially collapsed or unbalanced."
I think it perfectly represents the magickal universe. The Supernal Triad is necessarily protected from the imperfect microcosm. Jim has said good things in this thread, especially about doing white magick for the real treasure. It seems correct to me to say that before one can cross the abyss from 4 to 3, your karma has to be pristinely balanced and absolved with Nuit. Since she is the all, rather than self clinging, it should be obvious that any bad magicks you do to others for self gain is going to do you harm. The bad mantra is "I want all, I give nothing"; the true one is "I want nothing, I give all." This includes really any negativity towards another.
One exercise would be to recite "I want nothing, I give all" while meditating upon Sahasrara and Anahata as well as the 11th Sanskrit letter T, shaped as a sickle to cut attachment. I would suggest the banishing pentagram ritual and the middle pillar and yoga too.
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@Wizardiaoan said
"It seems correct to me to say that before one can cross the abyss from 4 to 3, your karma has to be pristinely balanced and absolved with Nuit. "
Good observation. That's a key feature of the process of becoming an Adeptus Major. The 6=5 actually lives within a world where Karma is the texture and the fabric of everyone around him or her. One can barely breathe without feeling its implications within the continuity of existence.
"Since she is the all, rather than self clinging, it should be obvious that any bad magicks you do to others for self gain is going to do you harm."
I think the single biggest consequence, though, of doing "bad magicks" is this: Setting aside all a priori judgements of good vs. bad, it remains true that if you commit your will to things that YOU define as evil, then you are forging a potent "conflict of will" within yourself - you are aligning your will with what YOU regard as contrary to what is right. This compromises integrity, splits forces, and generally cripples the will until it's healed.
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Yet, wouldn't it be to our benefit to rid ourselves of this imperfect Tree and create a new balanced Tree? Not that there is any promise that the new Tree will 'be' balanced.
Also, instead of balancing ourselves with Nuit who is of the Physical Universe I believe we should be looking towards the Duat and aligning with Nun or perhaps Amon? -
@Cliff Oth said
"Yet, wouldn't it be to our benefit to rid ourselves of this imperfect Tree and create a new balanced Tree?"
What's imperfect and what's imbalanced?
It appears to be to be a the most complete and accurate map of the actual archetecture of the components of the human psyche and their relationship to each other. (That's the basic thing it has to be in order to be useful in exploring the universe and in designing paths of initiation.)
"Also, instead of balancing ourselves with Nuit who is of the Physical Universe I believe we should be looking towards the Duat and aligning with Nun or perhaps Amon?"
I think it limiting to regard Nuit merely as the physical universe. Her basic characteristic is that She is all that is. Tuat comes in the mix.
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@Cliff Oth said
"As I was taught, Daath was originally part of the Tree and there was no Malkuth. As the Tree became imbalanced it collapsed from the Supernal down and Malkuth was created."
That's incorrect history regarding the Tree of Life among Qabalists.
The Golden Dawn does have a myth that is similar to this. The myth is that "before the Fall" the Middle Pillar was "up a notch." Tiphereth, Yesod, and Malkuth were located where Daath, Tiphereth, and Yesod currently are. According to the myth, at The Fall, the Middle Column ruptured and fell. Da'ath marks the hole.
The actual Tree matching this design is at least 200-300 years later than the Tree with which we're familiar.
Malkuth was part of the Kabbalistic pattern as far back as anything resembling Sephiroth can be traced. Da'ath appears a ways back (at least somewhat pre-Zohar, with scriptural passages at least planting seeds for it), but, as any kind of semi-stabilized fixture on the Tree, it's really quite new (about a couple of hundred years old IIRC).
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from my notes:
On the original ToL, Yesod, the astral abode of man, is an exact reflection of the highest plane, Kether, an exactness of God.
The Fall represents mankind's and natures fall into materialism.This Fall shields us from the spiritual world and opens an Abyss between Man and the Divine. The RHP of traditional Qabalah aims to restore the original harmonic relation between man and the Divine.
The LHP fulfills and deepens the Fall. The Dark Adept continues the Fall from God to reach individual divinity.
The reason behind the Fall is often described as being hubris, man's search for knowledge and forces that originally were not meant for him to acquire. The LHP leads to a second birth, a spiritual rebirth as a god.The original ToL did not contain the material world, instead the non-Sephira Daath existed., united by paths with Kether (above), Chokmah, Binah, Geburah and Tiphareth (below).
Lucifer-Daath, the original Serpent, represents the divine force of creation that is able to carry out God's idea of creation.
Lucifer-Daath sinks down to man's level and awakens the power of creation and the sexual energy in man. Thus, man can reach the knowledge which was previously only accessible to God.The adepts of the LHP glorify the Fall and allow the destruction to be fulfilled. Leading away from the ToL and further into the ToK. the Qliphoth being veiwed as fruits of the ToK
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I see. I made the mistake of assuming that when you mentioned the "original" form of the Tree, that you were talking about actual history. I stand corrected.
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Cliff Oth, the quote is quite meanless. Where can one fall - we're at the bottom of the ToL! Well, if you want to become a god read up some Indian stories. They talk a lot about asuras - demi-gods. Their practices can't be classified as the LHP, RHP - take Shiva for example - is kundalini LHP, RHP? It depends on how you use it and it certainly makes you a demi-god.
The sexual centre is Yesod, not Daath. Though I read that they connect in the 4 worlds i.e. Assiah Daath- Yetzirath Yesod; Yetzirath Daath- Briah Yesod; Briah Daath- Atziluth Yesod. -
@Modes said
"Cliff Oth, the quote is quite meanless. Where can one fall - we're at the bottom of the ToL! Well, if you want to become a god read up some Indian stories. They talk a lot about asuras - demi-gods. Their practices can't be classified as the LHP, RHP - take Shiva for example - is kundalini LHP, RHP? It depends on how you use it and it certainly makes you a demi-god.
The sexual centre is Yesod, not Daath. Though I read that they connect in the 4 worlds i.e. Assiah Daath- Yetzirath Yesod; Yetzirath Daath- Briah Yesod; Briah Daath- Atziluth Yesod."
Why meaningless? (I'll assume you meant that instead of meanless?)
I don't think you are getting the concept of the Fall?If I may continue (and Mr. Eshelman please jump in wherever you find my information incorrect please)
The original tree resembled a diamond, the highest level Atziluth, the Divine, consisting of Kether, Chokmah, Binah, Daath plus the paths connecting them.
The Middle section, Briah, consisting of Chesed, Geburah, Tiphareth and their paths.
The lowest level, Yetzirah, the astral level, Netzach, Hod Yesod and the paths.
The lowest material level did not exist yet, there was no Malkuth, originally Man's abode was the astral.The paths are altered after the Fall of Man and Daath loses its place and loses its path connections and the Abyss is opened.
This is what is meant by the Fall
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Well let's not disturb Mr. Eshelman for a moment.
There was no Daath before the Fall. It's Malkuth. There's a diagram somewhere. Daath denotes The Abyss. It's created after the Fall.
Thanks, I ment meaningless. Well not to be rude but your whole story is not true to the tradition. I don't know if you get Jim's joke but he wrote that it's not true too. I will point to one fact: As above so below means Heaven and Earth so Malkuth and Kether NOT Yesod. Well, all the elementary books teach that. Get Dion Fortune's Mystical Qabalath or something... I kind of respect Dragon Rouge but what you are writting horrifies me. I can't believe he wrote that!
Oh, and reread Jims posts in the thread.
what