Satan and the Qliphoth
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@Cliff Oth said
"As I was taught, Daath was originally part of the Tree and there was no Malkuth. As the Tree became imbalanced it collapsed from the Supernal down and Malkuth was created."
That's incorrect history regarding the Tree of Life among Qabalists.
The Golden Dawn does have a myth that is similar to this. The myth is that "before the Fall" the Middle Pillar was "up a notch." Tiphereth, Yesod, and Malkuth were located where Daath, Tiphereth, and Yesod currently are. According to the myth, at The Fall, the Middle Column ruptured and fell. Da'ath marks the hole.
The actual Tree matching this design is at least 200-300 years later than the Tree with which we're familiar.
Malkuth was part of the Kabbalistic pattern as far back as anything resembling Sephiroth can be traced. Da'ath appears a ways back (at least somewhat pre-Zohar, with scriptural passages at least planting seeds for it), but, as any kind of semi-stabilized fixture on the Tree, it's really quite new (about a couple of hundred years old IIRC).
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from my notes:
On the original ToL, Yesod, the astral abode of man, is an exact reflection of the highest plane, Kether, an exactness of God.
The Fall represents mankind's and natures fall into materialism.This Fall shields us from the spiritual world and opens an Abyss between Man and the Divine. The RHP of traditional Qabalah aims to restore the original harmonic relation between man and the Divine.
The LHP fulfills and deepens the Fall. The Dark Adept continues the Fall from God to reach individual divinity.
The reason behind the Fall is often described as being hubris, man's search for knowledge and forces that originally were not meant for him to acquire. The LHP leads to a second birth, a spiritual rebirth as a god.The original ToL did not contain the material world, instead the non-Sephira Daath existed., united by paths with Kether (above), Chokmah, Binah, Geburah and Tiphareth (below).
Lucifer-Daath, the original Serpent, represents the divine force of creation that is able to carry out God's idea of creation.
Lucifer-Daath sinks down to man's level and awakens the power of creation and the sexual energy in man. Thus, man can reach the knowledge which was previously only accessible to God.The adepts of the LHP glorify the Fall and allow the destruction to be fulfilled. Leading away from the ToL and further into the ToK. the Qliphoth being veiwed as fruits of the ToK
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I see. I made the mistake of assuming that when you mentioned the "original" form of the Tree, that you were talking about actual history. I stand corrected.
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Cliff Oth, the quote is quite meanless. Where can one fall - we're at the bottom of the ToL! Well, if you want to become a god read up some Indian stories. They talk a lot about asuras - demi-gods. Their practices can't be classified as the LHP, RHP - take Shiva for example - is kundalini LHP, RHP? It depends on how you use it and it certainly makes you a demi-god.
The sexual centre is Yesod, not Daath. Though I read that they connect in the 4 worlds i.e. Assiah Daath- Yetzirath Yesod; Yetzirath Daath- Briah Yesod; Briah Daath- Atziluth Yesod. -
@Modes said
"Cliff Oth, the quote is quite meanless. Where can one fall - we're at the bottom of the ToL! Well, if you want to become a god read up some Indian stories. They talk a lot about asuras - demi-gods. Their practices can't be classified as the LHP, RHP - take Shiva for example - is kundalini LHP, RHP? It depends on how you use it and it certainly makes you a demi-god.
The sexual centre is Yesod, not Daath. Though I read that they connect in the 4 worlds i.e. Assiah Daath- Yetzirath Yesod; Yetzirath Daath- Briah Yesod; Briah Daath- Atziluth Yesod."
Why meaningless? (I'll assume you meant that instead of meanless?)
I don't think you are getting the concept of the Fall?If I may continue (and Mr. Eshelman please jump in wherever you find my information incorrect please)
The original tree resembled a diamond, the highest level Atziluth, the Divine, consisting of Kether, Chokmah, Binah, Daath plus the paths connecting them.
The Middle section, Briah, consisting of Chesed, Geburah, Tiphareth and their paths.
The lowest level, Yetzirah, the astral level, Netzach, Hod Yesod and the paths.
The lowest material level did not exist yet, there was no Malkuth, originally Man's abode was the astral.The paths are altered after the Fall of Man and Daath loses its place and loses its path connections and the Abyss is opened.
This is what is meant by the Fall
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Well let's not disturb Mr. Eshelman for a moment.
There was no Daath before the Fall. It's Malkuth. There's a diagram somewhere. Daath denotes The Abyss. It's created after the Fall.
Thanks, I ment meaningless. Well not to be rude but your whole story is not true to the tradition. I don't know if you get Jim's joke but he wrote that it's not true too. I will point to one fact: As above so below means Heaven and Earth so Malkuth and Kether NOT Yesod. Well, all the elementary books teach that. Get Dion Fortune's Mystical Qabalath or something... I kind of respect Dragon Rouge but what you are writting horrifies me. I can't believe he wrote that!
Oh, and reread Jims posts in the thread. -
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@Jim Eshelman said
"I see. I made the mistake of assuming that when you mentioned the "original" form of the Tree, that you were talking about actual history. I stand corrected."
Who's 'actual' history are 'we' talking about here?
I have reread Fortune's Qabalaha and see her reference the Fall and the creation of Malkuth being separate from the original Tree along with the Tree being unbalanced now. So, Mr. Karlsson's Qabalah, as I reiterated, sounds quite feasible.Remember what Felix Unger said about Assuming?
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@Law said
"So then an adept of the left hand path isnt as cursed to fail as Crowley would claim? And Kenneth grant isnt crazy?
"You can say a lot of things about Grant just as you could say about Crowley. Grant's books have given me a lot of insights and new way to see things. You don't have to buy all. Take what talks to you, leave the rest
I don't care about the talk about LHP or RHP. It's so easy to get it all mixed up. Good and evil? Naaah it's all the eye of the beholder. I like the idea that Thelema is a middle way. At the end does it not say Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the law? Find youre way and follow it
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@Cliff Oth said
"from my notes:
The adepts of the LHP glorify the Fall and allow the destruction to be fulfilled. Leading away from the ToL and further into the ToK. the Qliphoth being veiwed as fruits of the ToK"The problem with this view is that you make a false duality. You can't devide the creation from the source. As it is said, Kether is in Malkuth and Malkuth in Kether but in a diffrent order. The great work I belive is not to unite but to realice that there is no division. But this is not as easy as it sounds.
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@noctivagus said
"
@Cliff Oth said
"from my notes:
The adepts of the LHP glorify the Fall and allow the destruction to be fulfilled. Leading away from the ToL and further into the ToK. the Qliphoth being veiwed as fruits of the ToK"The problem with this view is that you make a false duality. You can't devide the creation from the source. As it is said, Kether is in Malkuth and Malkuth in Kether but in a diffrent order. The great work I belive is not to unite but to realice that there is no division. But this is not as easy as it sounds.
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Why can't you divide the creation from the source? Why can't you become a creator and no longer a creation? -
"Why can't you divide the creation from the source? Why can't you become a creator and no longer a creation?"
My initial thoughts:
It depends on what level you want to use the terms. The concept you are questioning, IF it is to be related to Kether and Source, is a very abstract question of ultimate origins. The answer sounds something like...
Because the source of Creative Imagination itself is one and the same as the source and core of every atom of Creation.
You just can't get away from it. If I create The World's Best Comfy Chair, it is only because my genetics and my environment have worked together to spawn the desire, the intelligence, the imagination, the tools, and the will to do so.
That which manifests all things has manifested more manifestation through me, its manifestation.
Now, if you're speaking more commonly of "creator" as a person able to "create," then, yeah, I'd say we are all creators. But if you keep that "I did it/I can do it by myself" mentality as you progress up the Tree in your experience, the idea is that one finds that less and less actually originates with anything one normally considers one's "self," and unpleasant corrections in philosophy tend to occur.
...which is why I refer to the RHP as the "Real Headache Path" and the LHP as the "Larger Headache Path."
what