Satan and the Qliphoth
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Cliff Oth, the quote is quite meanless. Where can one fall - we're at the bottom of the ToL! Well, if you want to become a god read up some Indian stories. They talk a lot about asuras - demi-gods. Their practices can't be classified as the LHP, RHP - take Shiva for example - is kundalini LHP, RHP? It depends on how you use it and it certainly makes you a demi-god.
The sexual centre is Yesod, not Daath. Though I read that they connect in the 4 worlds i.e. Assiah Daath- Yetzirath Yesod; Yetzirath Daath- Briah Yesod; Briah Daath- Atziluth Yesod. -
@Modes said
"Cliff Oth, the quote is quite meanless. Where can one fall - we're at the bottom of the ToL! Well, if you want to become a god read up some Indian stories. They talk a lot about asuras - demi-gods. Their practices can't be classified as the LHP, RHP - take Shiva for example - is kundalini LHP, RHP? It depends on how you use it and it certainly makes you a demi-god.
The sexual centre is Yesod, not Daath. Though I read that they connect in the 4 worlds i.e. Assiah Daath- Yetzirath Yesod; Yetzirath Daath- Briah Yesod; Briah Daath- Atziluth Yesod."
Why meaningless? (I'll assume you meant that instead of meanless?)
I don't think you are getting the concept of the Fall?If I may continue (and Mr. Eshelman please jump in wherever you find my information incorrect please)
The original tree resembled a diamond, the highest level Atziluth, the Divine, consisting of Kether, Chokmah, Binah, Daath plus the paths connecting them.
The Middle section, Briah, consisting of Chesed, Geburah, Tiphareth and their paths.
The lowest level, Yetzirah, the astral level, Netzach, Hod Yesod and the paths.
The lowest material level did not exist yet, there was no Malkuth, originally Man's abode was the astral.The paths are altered after the Fall of Man and Daath loses its place and loses its path connections and the Abyss is opened.
This is what is meant by the Fall
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Well let's not disturb Mr. Eshelman for a moment.
There was no Daath before the Fall. It's Malkuth. There's a diagram somewhere. Daath denotes The Abyss. It's created after the Fall.
Thanks, I ment meaningless. Well not to be rude but your whole story is not true to the tradition. I don't know if you get Jim's joke but he wrote that it's not true too. I will point to one fact: As above so below means Heaven and Earth so Malkuth and Kether NOT Yesod. Well, all the elementary books teach that. Get Dion Fortune's Mystical Qabalath or something... I kind of respect Dragon Rouge but what you are writting horrifies me. I can't believe he wrote that!
Oh, and reread Jims posts in the thread. -
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@Jim Eshelman said
"I see. I made the mistake of assuming that when you mentioned the "original" form of the Tree, that you were talking about actual history. I stand corrected."
Who's 'actual' history are 'we' talking about here?
I have reread Fortune's Qabalaha and see her reference the Fall and the creation of Malkuth being separate from the original Tree along with the Tree being unbalanced now. So, Mr. Karlsson's Qabalah, as I reiterated, sounds quite feasible.Remember what Felix Unger said about Assuming?
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@Law said
"So then an adept of the left hand path isnt as cursed to fail as Crowley would claim? And Kenneth grant isnt crazy?
"You can say a lot of things about Grant just as you could say about Crowley. Grant's books have given me a lot of insights and new way to see things. You don't have to buy all. Take what talks to you, leave the rest
I don't care about the talk about LHP or RHP. It's so easy to get it all mixed up. Good and evil? Naaah it's all the eye of the beholder. I like the idea that Thelema is a middle way. At the end does it not say Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the law? Find youre way and follow it
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@Cliff Oth said
"from my notes:
The adepts of the LHP glorify the Fall and allow the destruction to be fulfilled. Leading away from the ToL and further into the ToK. the Qliphoth being veiwed as fruits of the ToK"The problem with this view is that you make a false duality. You can't devide the creation from the source. As it is said, Kether is in Malkuth and Malkuth in Kether but in a diffrent order. The great work I belive is not to unite but to realice that there is no division. But this is not as easy as it sounds.
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@noctivagus said
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@Cliff Oth said
"from my notes:
The adepts of the LHP glorify the Fall and allow the destruction to be fulfilled. Leading away from the ToL and further into the ToK. the Qliphoth being veiwed as fruits of the ToK"The problem with this view is that you make a false duality. You can't devide the creation from the source. As it is said, Kether is in Malkuth and Malkuth in Kether but in a diffrent order. The great work I belive is not to unite but to realice that there is no division. But this is not as easy as it sounds.
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Why can't you divide the creation from the source? Why can't you become a creator and no longer a creation? -
"Why can't you divide the creation from the source? Why can't you become a creator and no longer a creation?"
My initial thoughts:
It depends on what level you want to use the terms. The concept you are questioning, IF it is to be related to Kether and Source, is a very abstract question of ultimate origins. The answer sounds something like...
Because the source of Creative Imagination itself is one and the same as the source and core of every atom of Creation.
You just can't get away from it. If I create The World's Best Comfy Chair, it is only because my genetics and my environment have worked together to spawn the desire, the intelligence, the imagination, the tools, and the will to do so.
That which manifests all things has manifested more manifestation through me, its manifestation.
Now, if you're speaking more commonly of "creator" as a person able to "create," then, yeah, I'd say we are all creators. But if you keep that "I did it/I can do it by myself" mentality as you progress up the Tree in your experience, the idea is that one finds that less and less actually originates with anything one normally considers one's "self," and unpleasant corrections in philosophy tend to occur.
...which is why I refer to the RHP as the "Real Headache Path" and the LHP as the "Larger Headache Path."
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@noctivagus said
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@Cliff Oth said
"from my notes:)"
Why can't you divide the creation from the source? Why can't you become a creator and no longer a creation?"Cause you already are the creator.
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@Frater LR said
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"Why can't you divide the creation from the source? Why can't you become a creator and no longer a creation?"My initial thoughts:
It depends on what level you want to use the terms. The concept you are questioning, IF it is to be related to Kether and Source, is a very abstract question of ultimate origins. The answer sounds something like...
Because the source of Creative Imagination itself is one and the same as the source and core of every atom of Creation.
You just can't get away from it. If I create The World's Best Comfy Chair, it is only because my genetics and my environment have worked together to spawn the desire, the intelligence, the imagination, the tools, and the will to do so.
That which manifests all things has manifested more manifestation through me, its manifestation.
Now, if you're speaking more commonly of "creator" as a person able to "create," then, yeah, I'd say we are all creators. But if you keep that "I did it/I can do it by myself" mentality as you progress up the Tree in your experience, the idea is that one finds that less and less actually originates with anything one normally considers one's "self," and unpleasant corrections in philosophy tend to occur.
...which is why I refer to the RHP as the "Real Headache Path" and the LHP as the "Larger Headache Path.""
Thank you Frater LR, now that I have looked a bit closer into all of this I realize what you are saying and correct me if once again I have it wrong . . . ultimately what we are trying to do here (the Great Work) is to know our Higher-Self, our Creator-Self per se?
If this is true could you briefly explain the Self-Deification theory that LHP's aspire to?
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@Jim Eshelman said
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It takes about three years for a preponderance of cells in the human body to replace themselves. One consequence of this is that it takes about 3 to 3 1/2 years of persistent, consistent application to a line of thought and practice for the body to reshape itself to a form consistent with a particular 'message.' Different systems make use of this in different ways. For example, in Temple of Thelema this is the minimum time period one can move from first initiation through a series of subsequence degrees to the Second Order (though few choose to do it in so quick a time). In O.T.O., taken at its best, one can bet to III° in about the same time, and this is a very significant threshold."This is a little off-topic, but you mean that literally, right? That the majority of the cells in a body have to be replaced while thinking and practicing a certain way to really advance? So, in theory, if science figures out a way to accelerate the cell replacement process or through some herbs, there is a possibility of doing this sooner.
what