Probationary work clarifications
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@frateruranus said
"And "quasi-nazi" is a bit strong don't you think?"
No, I don't. I knew enough people who worked directly under Motta to receive consistent reports from several people.
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@frateruranus said
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@Jim Eshelman said
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@frateruranus said
""While the superior should not require certain PRACTICES part of the tests of a Probationer are to see what his dedication to the order is through these assigned tasks be they mundane tasks like photocopying documents, proofreading manuscripts, key entering documents etc. this practical work lays the groundwork for service to the order and also teaches the candidate in subtle ways. "
There is no place for this kind of chela abuse in the A.'.A.'. system.
Offers of service are another matter, of course. But your description sounds like the quasi-Nazi M. Motta approach which is entirely out of line."
I don't see how it is abuse. Like I said, personal labour for the superior is definitely as no-no. But asking a student to typeset his diary or key enter a ritual etc. to help subtly facilitate his learning of the material? Some people, such as myself (dyslexia), find this sort of work helps us to develop a working knowledge of the materials because we have to pay closer attention. I never would have found this out were I not to have been assigned such tasks as typesetting this ritual or that ritual and to proofread this manuscript or that essay. I may be using the wrong terms to explain what I mean as well though.
And "quasi-nazi" is a bit strong don't you think? I wasn't saying tell the aspirant to do these things or they won't pass but that assignation of tasks helps to gauge the student and how best to help guide the student on the path with the most success. I think you are being a bit knee-jerk to my comment."
"Although the intentions & motives of the Nazis may be totally wrong, divorced from their actions their rigorous training, discipline, and order can still be admirable. Im not sure why that is an insult regarding organizational matters.
Either way, it wasnt intended in this way and it does seem a bit knee-jerk.
IAO131
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The highest ranking of them also openly practiced extremes of sadism - sufficient for this to have become inherent in the meaning of the word. And "extremes of sadism" is a big part of what I meant.
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@Jim Eshelman said
"The highest ranking of them also openly practiced extremes of sadism - sufficient for this to have become inherent in the meaning of the word. And "extremes of sadism" is a big part of what I meant."
Does "of them" refer to Motta or Nazis? And how is this 'inherent in the meaning of the word" if Marquis de Sade was in the early 19th century and the term 'sadism' was used well before the Nazi party or Motta ever existed?
IAO131
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@Aum418 said
"Does "of them" refer to Motta or Nazis?"
Nazis.
"And how is this 'inherent in the meaning of the word" if Marquis de Sade was in the early 19th century and the term 'sadism' was used well before the Nazi party or Motta ever existed?"
Inherent by usage and history. In other words, it was a primary characteristic of the Nazi regime as embodied by its inner core.
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I knew what Jim meant but I didn't take offense to it. I respect and admire what Jim has to say and do even if I feel in this case he is being a little over reactive on the topic.
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@Jim Eshelman said
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@Aum418 said
"Does "of them" refer to Motta or Nazis?"Nazis.
"And how is this 'inherent in the meaning of the word" if Marquis de Sade was in the early 19th century and the term 'sadism' was used well before the Nazi party or Motta ever existed?"
Inherent by usage and history. In other words, it was a primary characteristic of the Nazi regime as embodied by its inner core."
The Nazis may have been cruel, but I'm a bit of a Sadist myself.
IAO131
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Have you seen "Salo" by Pasolini? The connections between Sadism and Nazism are made very clear here - the film is inspired by Pasolini's first hand experiences growing up under Nazi rule.
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Jim, you stated in reference to the Motta lineage:
"The highest ranking of them also openly practiced extremes of sadism - sufficient for this to have become inherent in the meaning of the word. And "extremes of sadism" is a big part of what I meant."
The reason I am revisting this thread, I would like to know, either here, or in an inbox email, if you are referring to David Berrson, aka Frater Sphinx aka Frater Phoenix whom Motta made the head of his lineage and O.T.O. upon his death.
I am asking because this person is the person that admitted me into the A A and is my Neophyte, but for reasons I wouldn't discuss in the open, I have reasons to seriously question my choice. I would appreciate any feedback
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@Frater Pramudita said
"The reason I am revisting this thread, I would like to know, either here, or in an inbox email, if you are referring to David Berrson, aka Frater Sphinx aka Frater Phoenix whom Motta made the head of his lineage and O.T.O. upon his death."
I have no information on behavior of David Berrson in this regard.
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Well you said the highest ranking. David Bersson is the highest ranking of the Motta lineage. Sorry for the confusion, but may I have a private conversation with you seeking genuine advice?
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@Frater Pramudita said
"Well you said the highest ranking. David Bersson is the highest ranking of the Motta lineage. Sorry for the confusion, but may I have a private conversation with you seeking genuine advice?"
All of my comments were concerning events during Motta's life.
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Do as thou wilt shall be the whole of the Law.
Greetings.
I am currently preparing for the probationary period and putting together a personal regiment. In doing so I know it is necessary to memorize a chapter of Liber LXV. Is there any suggestions as to this process? Any particular chapter more advisable than any other?
Now, I must admit. I have read this over and over and read the commentary and I still do not fully get it. I get so much out of many of Crowley's other works which are deep, yet understandable and not totally cryptic. Why was this the piece chosen for this? I mean much of Crowley's works are so much more poetical and even beautiful...but this Liber really does not resonate with me like some others. Even the commentary supposedly expounding on it does not reveal much. It almost appears to be grasping at straws at times. Anyone else feel this way when they started?
Love is the law, love under will
-Xkip93
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nevermind
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Ok, after having read all of the posts on this thread I realize I will probably not get any feedback from my previous question.
But I am not in the Probation phase.
I am just studying A:.A:. material and looking at how I will apply it to my life at present. I understand much of the material and see the benefit behind its theory. I know my question seems a bit juvenile, but I have thought this, concerning Liber LXV for quite some time.I know that even Liber AL changes voices and is hard to understand at times, but it is a cohesive work IMO and I would count it very beneficial to memorize a chapter if not the entire work. But LXV just seems like a hodge-podge. It seemingly begins with rhyme and reason and then just falls all over the place. Maybe that is the reason for having to memorize such an article, because it is difficult to memorize something of its nature, I don't know?
For instance, the verse that reads, "Oh honey boy..." The commentary states that this is a reference to the bezoar stone? Come on, the verse does not even resemble the previous topic of such. My first impression was homo-erotic poetic verse...anyone else?
I would like to know how some of you have benefited from this Liber.
PS: One thing I find interesting on this forum:
If Motta's group under Bersson is so great, why are so many people from his group asking questions HERE? Is the great sphinx not available?
Here we have Jim constantly helping out here with true concern and care for aspirants. Do we eat at the Steak House and then go to Burger King to pay the bill?93 93/93
-Xkip
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@xkip93 said
"Ok, after having read all of the posts on this thread I realize I will probably not get any feedback from my previous question.
But I am not in the Probation phase.
I am just studying A:.A:. material and looking at how I will apply it to my life at present. I understand much of the material and see the benefit behind its theory. I know my question seems a bit juvenile, but I have thought this, concerning Liber LXV for quite some time.I would like to know how some of you have benefited from this Liber.
PS: One thing I find interesting on this forum:
If Motta's group under Bersson is so great, why are so many people from his group asking questions HERE? Is the great sphinx not available?
Here we have Jim constantly helping out here with true concern and care for aspirants. Do we eat at the Steak House and then go to Burger King to pay the bill?93 93/93
-Xkip"
93, Hi Xkip, Thanks, I needed that laugh. I guess many here are starving for information and help. 93 93/93 Persephone
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@xkip93 said
"I am currently preparing for the probationary period and putting together a personal regiment. In doing so I know it is necessary to memorize a chapter of Liber LXV. Is there any suggestions as to this process? Any particular chapter more advisable than any other?"
You should pick your own chapter. People do this for different reasons. It seems wrong to me to suggest a basis for you to decide this, because it's a highly personal decision. Usually, in hindsight, the chapter a person selects says a great deal about what they need in their Way.
As for "suggestions as to the process," what exactly do you mean? How to memorize? Different techniques. Soror Meral memorized every chapter of Libri 65, 7, and 220 over a few years by taking the chapter she was working on and reading it every night just before sleep. She then would keep this fresh, after she had all 15 chapters memorized, by reciting one every morning. - I made use of this as a general background, but have a mind that "builds from scratch," so I'd always lock down one verse, then build the second on it recite both, then add the third etc. over some period of weeks.
One of my favorite tricks - I used it myself, and have recommended it to others for whom it has succeeded - is based on the nearly universal observation that one often can't get out of one's head a song heard on the radio. So I taped my chapter on a cassette tape and played it over and over in my car while driving. This accelerated the memorization.
"Now, I must admit. I have read this over and over and read the commentary and I still do not fully get it. I get so much out of many of Crowley's other works which are deep, yet understandable and not totally cryptic."
It takes many years, and doesn't get entirely clear until some significant initiation steps have been taken. Also, this book really isn't created to be understood rationally (although it's quite capable of being understood rationally). It's meant to overwhelm your soul. From the act of memorization, and of constant repetition of any chapter from this book, you are changed.
"Why was this the piece chosen for this? I mean much of Crowley's works are so much more poetical and even beautiful...but this Liber really does not resonate with me like some others. "
Personal tastes vary. Personally, I don't think there's a single thing that emerged from Crowley's pen more beautiful than Liber 65. (I just said so in my talk here in NYC Saturday
) It is assigned to the Probationer because the first Great Task is to attain to the K&C of the HGA; and then Liber VII to the 1=10 because the next Great Task is crossing the abyss; and then Liber CCXX to the 2=9 because it leads to the highest attainments.Additionally, Liber LXV expresses itself through the Elements, which are the basis of the first stage of training, so it prepares one for the First Order initiation at 1=10; and Liber VII through the Planets, which are the next order of training, and thus helps prepare for the Second Order initiation at 2=9.
The real intention, I think, is to saturate the soul with the beauty and sublimity of this tale of the adept's relationship to the HGA as expressed from the p.o.v. of the respective Elements.
"Even the commentary supposedly expounding on it does not reveal much. It almost appears to be grasping at straws at times. Anyone else feel this way when they started?"
No, I never did. I (figuratively) sat patiently and attentively at the feet of the commentary to grasp whatever fragment of light I could, given my dark ignorance.
The commentary (which BTW is not part of anything assigned - it was written decades later - but it can be an enormous help) is written from a very high state. Written by a Magus, it speaks of the reality of the Adept and, in places, of the Magister. It will serve study and restudy for decades.
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93 Jim,
This is exactly why I made the previous comments about you genuinely helping others. Your answer was exactly what I was looking for as you have shed LVX on LXV.
You have shown that you deem this a sacred book with great depth, and coming from you this motivates me to study it, memorize it, and glean from it what truth I can. (Lest I lean to my own limited understanding and think that Crowley has played a joke on all of us).
Along with some tips on memorization and clarifying that it is truly up to the individual to pick which verse to memorize I think you have placed me on the right track. I appreciate your help.
-Xkip
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@xkip93 said
"For instance, the verse that reads, "Oh honey boy..." The commentary states that this is a reference to the bezoar stone? Come on, the verse does not even resemble the previous topic of such. My first impression was homo-erotic poetic verse...anyone else?
I would like to know how some of you have benefited from this Liber.
"I too *had * been trying to memorize a verse. I was trying last year, and then basically had it down -in segments with a little bit of prodding- then promptly forgot it.
The great benefit though is now when I read the chapter I picked, it's like an old friend of sorts. Strange because it's familiar, yet not fully remembered. I will, one day, try to memorize it fully.It has a much different feel than Liber AL but I like it. It is more "random" if you will. Apparently (?) a lot of Greek literature references... has a strange classical feel to me, imagery-wise. Yes the "honey boy" is homoerotic, as far as I can tell. The angel is here male, and the speaker is male, so....
Presumably that type of eros is how Crowley interpreted the interaction with the HGA? -
@xkip93 said
"PS: One thing I find interesting on this forum:
If Motta's group under Bersson is so great, why are so many people from his group asking questions HERE? Is the great sphinx not available?
Here we have Jim constantly helping out here with true concern and care for aspirants. Do we eat at the Steak House and then go to Burger King to pay the bill?93 93/93
-Xkip"
I'd say this statement is definitely uncalled for and unnecessary. Bersson doesn't use a public forum (I am not a student of Bersson's by the way) to communicate with the "at large" community like Jim does and to judge him based on THAT criteria is an unfair judgement. I think it is unbecoming to disparage someone like this on a public forum behind a screen name & especially when that person isn't a contributor to this forum.