"We have nothing with the outcast"
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might not this declaration of the law mean that we are to have nothing with out castes, Literally.
What I mean is that as I see it Thelema is not rooted in liberalism or any sort of modernism, it encourages a very strong self-empowering elitist attitude. Where as modern social and political philosophy stems from egalitarian notions than we should have empathy and compassion for the weak, the homeless, the racial minority, the mental retarded, even so far as to use Political correct language least calling a spade a spade where he can here us, upset his feelings.
Thelema is to do away with all of this, and impose harsh standards on others, those who fail to meet up with ones standards are unfit and caste out of the social order. "Kings shall be kings forever, the slaves shall serve"
Is not Liber AL, a call for extreme right wing traditionalism, even a sort of monarchy. Does not the OTO have more in common with Plato's republic and Evola's Tradition than with communism and leftist democracy?
Was it not Nietzsche who made the cut as a saint and Christ for his slave-mentality that set back the progress of the A.'.A.'. by centuries dubbed the title "Black sorcerer of Nazareth"
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I'm going to have to beg to differ. Compassion is the vice of Kings, meaning only a King can afford to exercise Compassion because he has the means above all and can afford to practice that Vice. I think Thelema transcends the idea of left & right and what you are promoting is fascism and while I have in the past made an arguement that Thelema is a sort of benign fascism that was an arguement for the sake of "devil's advocate" in order to draw attention to certain elements that were being overlooked in some places.
Misplaced charity is what Thelema is against, charity that one can not afford to give is no charity but only harming oneself. For an example, say I have enough food to feed myself and myself alone but instead of feeding myself I give the food to a homeless man and starve to death myself. That is misplaced charity because I couldn't afford to do it & suffered for it. Now say I have enough food for myself & then some. I see the same homeless man. There is nothing wrong in giving this man food. It is in stark contrast with Christ's teaching of giving EVERYTHING over and deny the self, even into detriment of the self! Liber AL also mentions beggars being kings in disguise!
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yes, it does mention kings disguised as beggars, and how does it say to treat said beggars.
If says to not feel you should be compassionate to everyone you see for fear maybe they are a kind or some one important. It says to strike low and hard, with all your might against this display of weakness. If he is a true king he will meet your challenge as an equal, if he is a pathetic self loathing slave, he will cower away in fear and die in the misery of his self pity.
Crowley's advice on beggars, is to demand they stand up and look you in the eye, and ask if you need anything. To put then to work as say a secretary, or something that aids you WILL in some way, pay them a fair wage. Or if they meet you as an equal, invite them to dinner as a friend and pay their tab.
Put any expression of weakness and humility should not be tolerated, if they want to act like a worthless outcast, do not treat then as a king who might reward you for your gifts, rather treat them as they apparently want to be treated like stray dogs, inhuman and unworthy, kick them away. Do not reward humility, but instead reward dignity, vigor, strength and discipline.
Nor is this fascist, but it is pre-modern virtues and honor not so different than one finds in Mohism and Taoism, as well as traditional monarchy.
See Crowley's letter "Groans from the padded cell"
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Hokay... sure.
I am not disagreeing with Crowley's comment but the way you put it one would just come off as an incredible asshole. Do you treat everybody like they are lesser being or do you recognize they are sleeping gods and treat them accordingly? In the example of the beggar the same thing can be done without being a total prick. Should the beggar fail? Then have no more to do with them of course because they aren't willing to help themselves.
U
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No I treat them as potentially my equal, if they came to be as an equal. If they come seeking sympathy and pity, trying to use the slave mentality formula that because they are pitiful they are worthy of my assistance, I do not respond to their faux humility that is a hypocritical expression of the WILL to power by way of a show of weakness.
The idea is to meet others king to king, and to prove equality in battles, be it of physical prowess or wits. Success is proof of worthiness, failures are left in the dust. Let them rise up when they are ready to meet you again, but it is not wise to aid your opponent in victory over you. Does the lion give the hyena an advantage over itself it hunting or handicap itself to allow fair access to game?
"The morality of slaves says. ”You are equal to me; we are both the same”; the morality of masters says. “ We are not equal; we are not the same; become equal to me; then we will be the same.” The morality of slaves reduces all to bondage; the morality of masters encourages all to attain, if they can, the heights of freedom." (Marauders)
Back to the lion example. What sort of lion would have pity for the lamb and refuse to eat it, depriving itself of its nourishment and its WILL? Then what sort of lamb seeing the lions "noble self sacrifice" would take pity on the beast and offer its life to feed its hunger, thus the lamb is deprived of its WILL as a lamb. When lions feel guilty about being lions and sheep feel guilty about being sheep, you have Christian slave morality, the formula of Osiris, not Thelemic Law of the strong and formula of the solar hawk.
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Here is a quote from the O.T.O. Newsletter Vol. III, #10-11, Spring 1980 e.v taken directly from On Knowing Aleister Crowley Personally by Hymenaeus Alpha 777.
"Crowley was in the tradition of the radical-conservative. On the one hand there is nothing more radical than Thelema. On the other hand he was a monarchist. He could never forgive Edward VIII for having abdicated his throne to marry a commoner. After all, the office of the Royal Consort had been approved in European royalty for centuries."
It is certain that Crowley in his confessions states The Law can apply under any sort of political system. However he makes clear also that his inclination is towards the tradition of monarchy with presumably the nobility being represented by the Adept in magick and the grade of Magus expressing the occasional king who re-aligns the rituals and society with the times equating to the Prophets in Cloud upon the sanctuary, Where as the Magister maintains the Temple or the social order that has been established by the previous Magus.
The A.'.A.'. being a sort of training system to increase the chance of a noble "genius" or "christ" developing out of the base substance of the common riff-raff. Not transmuting them into geniuses so much as providing opportunity for the natural genius to reveal themselves to the world.
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Eh, Crowley can be a radical conservative. I tend to be one of those people who feel there is a time for liberal & a time for conservative ideals for practicalities sake. I tend to be a libertarian who votes democrat though because the Republicans have been eroding our civil liberties and trying to scare us into submission. ON a personal scale & true politics I am a libertarian autocrat. I think voting leads to idiotic nonsense but then again, autocracy can lead to Stalin...
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radical conservative has nothing to do with republicans or democrats.
Its an ideology in which people are not equal, some people just are by nature superior to others and that those who are superior should be recognized and they are natural and rightful rulers of the masses.Naturally leading to a monarch, who is at the top of the hierarchy and the touch stone by which social class it judge is how well ones natural virtues match those of the monarch.
The idea being that the initiated kings are in touch with the transcended order of the universe and thus they relate those bellow them who are more and more materialist and thus in touch with the physical temporary earth and less in touch with the eternal transcendent values. A king being by birth, training and initiation a superior being to the man of the earth, the serfs. Whose life is dedicated to the physical soil and requires all transcendent spiritual influence to be granted from higher castes, ultimately the source is the secret chiefs and the King who is in touch with them, with the 3rd order, or the transcendent, the Kingdom of heaven as the Jews call it.
It seem a grave misunderstanding of the nature of Thelema to interpret it as liberal or new-age. It is in fact a cry against such ideals as democracy and equality. That the old order by wiped away in force and fire, than new Kings shall come to the throne and with them all new people, races, and nations. Where each individual far from existing in aimless so called "liberty", is instead aware of ones place in the transcendent order and works to establish that role on earth, to cerate the divine order in the world. To realize oneself with purpose unassuaged, not to be without conditions as is the ideal of liberalism, but rather to be without restrictions or limits on what one can do or become, that is without a ceiling or the shackles of imposed equality.
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Liberalism has nothing to do with democracy... again though I am a libertarian autocrat, not the same thing. I just recognize there are times when, IN THE USA, as we currently stand governmentally, that there are times for Republicans & times for Democrats. Until we can have a Thelemic form of government we must learn to work with the government we already have in order to effect the changes in society we want. Example, if one wants marijuana legalized... the democrats are high on that idea. LOL. If you support gay right to marry? democrats. Right now the Democrats represent a Thelemic ideal more than the Republicans (the buyouts were started by Bush). If you want health care, which is a RIGHT, not a privelege, Democrats. You want small government etc though, neither party is indicative of that. The only way we will have a Thelemic government etc. is by fighting to have our own country. Not gonna happen in the States anytime soon so work with what you got.
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no I would assume part of the purpose of the OTO was to create its own segregated system, and eventually to promote small self-sustaining communities, something based partly on feudalism it seems drawing heavily from plato, but either way which would be autonomous communities jointly connected by the nation and world level grand lodges, which would serve by example and slowly replace existing governments. Not by political warfare or even it the congress or courts, but rather by replacing the social, religious and economic institutions with a superior model, not based on lists of rules and laws, but on character traits and virtue ethics. Where absolute liberty is assured by the character values such as honor, personal responsibility, and self-discipline instilled in the members via initiations, daily rituals, and moral lessons, not based on ethics but on transcendent virtues, that can only be taught by ordeals and initiated examples from the authority of higher grades.
I am not terribly interested in the specifics of what actions are restricted by the black rituals and obsolete power institutions such as the United State, which are not going to hold out much longer against the regenerating fires which will cleans the earth or all political and religious orders of the old aeon.
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That is a great vision and one I agree with but face it, unless something major happens that causes this nation to fall into some sort of chaos, it isn't going to happen. It would be nice if we could be autonomous outside of the laws of the nation but we can not, we are not exempt and aside from that the OTO is not Thelema and most Thelemites are not members of the OTO nor do they want to be members of the OTO. Ideal worlds do not exist. There must therefore be tact and discretion & one must, by necessity work with the system they are presented with. This is not an opinion but a sad fact of life, near indisputable.
Uranus
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The Amish have been living their lives outside the social and legal order of the general nation for like 100 years.
The Mormons were left alone until certain practices became public knowledge and was of a particularly appalling nature to the public.
The Scientologists have private camps that few really question as well as ships in international waters.
So long as your activity in not disrupting the general public, is not some think like ritual murder, child abuse, etc. and you agree to pay your taxes, (Or evade them in a legal way as a tax-free faith) the gov will let you be. Oh also you have to not take up arms or promote the taking up of arms against the public or the millitary or the economy of the nation which hosts you.
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Ideally that would be so. However, we must be honest with ourselves and admit that Thelema attracts more "crazies" (not me) and "sex/drug fiends" (yes, I admit freely to this, as part of my personal True Will is to experience everything this world has to offer)
Mormon polygamy would look practically normal compared with some of the things that would go down in a Thelemite community, and given this lunatic government's obsession with preventing people from altering their consciousness (it is no longer acceptable to forbid magick, so they pursue psychedelics instead. I personally know people doing more time for LSD possession than the typical rapist-murderer gets)
Of course Thelema is NOT a religion/philosophy of "take drugs and shag everything in sight", but there do exist many Thelemites that have that as part of their True Will. Ideally there should be no problem with that. In the United States of Hypocrisy, however, it would never fly.
We do need a cleansing of the Aeon, be it by consciousness shift, massive natural disaster or even war, to abolish the old and obsolete that currently rule us, when WE are the chosen, WE are the Kings and stars. It is coming. -
A large part of thelema is character virtues which includes hospitality for the host nation under which ones private lodges and communities are founded, and thus to obey the laws of said nation, One would expect in fact that Thelemites would be even more law abiding and socially presentable than the average hypocritical citizen who takes advantage of the "american liberties" to give lip service to the law and the social propriety, but in private is a secret (or not so secret) alcoholic, debaucher and marijuana addict, or closet social pervert in some way, while even going so far as it publicly speak out against others who share is perversions.
In any event, in the interest of promoting oneself, thelema and the OTO in a publicly respected light, I would personally refrain from illegal drug use and any overt sexual activity that may be considered perverted by the host population, and thus sullen the name of the Order.
Once the Order becomes well established and respected, then as a collective group, it can use legal political channels to influence the laws of the host nation, to fit its own ideals. Such as using the treasury and other influence to hire lobbyists and to advertise its voting agendas to say Vote yes on proposition X to legalize commercial hemp farming, in which case the order, could collect revenue from rope and drug sales, legally, But must totally refrain from such actions so long as prohibited by law.
Initiating men of political clout into the order is anther good way to achieve influence, as is suggested by Crowley in his open letter.
Based on the success of scientology, it seems initiating A list actors is a great way to get public recognition as well, (If the TRUE teachings of the OTO do not appeal to the actors, teach them some bullshit that will get them into it, and charge out the ass too, they can afford it and this money will help promulgate the law, and to achieve it's purpose the complete eradication or Christian superstition and all government based their on, and their replacement with Social, religious and political orders rooted in Thelemic law. -
So you suggest LYING to people about Thelema & the OTO in order to use them for recruitment? I don't think Crowley would have condoned that idea and he had some pretty... interesting... ideas.
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@frateruranus said
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@gerry456 said
"should a person who doesn't fit in socially get that aspect of himself sorted out before he embarks upon a magical path or will the former issue be solved naturally as a bi product of magical success/effort particularly on the Thelemic path?"Ressurecting an old thread, deal with it.
I think a better way to look at this verse is more look at the A.'.A.'. & the ordeals that take an initiate out.
Uranus"
To get back to the original question, I have at time wondered if a fraternal order should have the right to ask that potential members seek counselling before full membership, if the need is seen ahead of time. Some Pagan groups do this when the HPS or other elders feel it would help the group. Actually some Wiccan groups ask this for every candidate, I think that is usually unnecessary but in some cases it might save the other members alot of drama and grief in the future. I'm undecided about this practise, just throwing it out as an idea.
I do feel though, that the quote refers to internal ordeals rather than social or political struggles. Persephone -
It is not exactly lying so much as providing other different sort of experiences for those we are trying to recruit as public mouth pieces and wranglers. The external order is meant to be a mask a sort of popular social club that the common will not feel embarrassed or ashamed to join, it is from this common stock that the inner order selects and cultivates an brings through ordeals, such the the inner order is secret and if expressed openly would ruffle the fur of the general public, but is accepted by the chosen few who are selected by merit and taught the secrets.
But, to get the common stock from which it breed a higher sort, we need to draw them in. It is what scientology does, do you really think they pu Tom Cruise through the same program as the average member. Of course part of Scientology is that they give you a personality test and have a specifically designed program that plays on ones perceived weaknesses and inhibitions as indicated by the test. Also ones social class and income level will be calculated into the program, personally designed to some extent to the individual. (though scientology is mostly brain washing and conditioned loyalty) Still the point than they use the method of science to design a program specific to the individual and also to promote the orders own ends, seems in line with Crowley's True WILL notion.
I would think Thelema in general would be using profiling psychological, socio-economic and racial to design a complex system of grades, that transfer people into different sub-orders based on the nature of their TRUE WILL, thus making the order a sort of system to sort out natural Caste or a guild assessment system. Where the nature of each individual would be cultivated and supported by the particular branch of the order which is assigned to than particular type of person.
For example at the Yesod grade those with proclivity for logic and abstraction would be initiated into the order that deals with logical sciences and engineering etc, where as those with more of an emotional and organic disposition would be initiated into the Netzatch arts and religion, those who stop at Malkuth may be natural farmers, those who stop at hod, Logicians, an Gevurah, warriors. Not that we have to strictly use the tree of life, but it seems a decent sort of 10 caste system than provides also the proper and balanced relationship between caste, to prevent and one caste from one sided domination.
At least that is my idea of an order than truly reflects Crowley's Far Right political views. Maximizing both the personal liberty and ideal self expression of the individual (as part of his or her natural sphere be it racial, ethnic, cultural, economic, common ideals or common caste) while at the same time creating a balance of power between individuals that maximized social benefit and liberty as a member of a society that transcends differences by finding a means for each to express itself in a means beneficial to the whole.
Much like the notion than rather than chastise, banish and bind demons, it is better to understand the True Nature of each one, and not constrain it to do something un-natural to it, but rather work to find a beneficial means by which that demon can express itself that aids rather than hinders your true WILL. For the repress, ignore, bind, or constrain to improper expression, a demon (bad habit) is ultimately against your True WILL, as this builds up stress and expresses itself in neurotic ways, anxiety, depression, irrational fears, and fetishes, can lead to psychosis and bizaar behaviors. The same is TRUE of individuals in society whose TRUE nature either by not being known (not tested for or cultivated) or by direct moral repression, is either ignored, chastised, repressed, or constrained to an expression or occupation inappropriate to it. When this happens, the pressures build and we have strikes, protests, passive aggressive sabotages, criminal activity, and large scale revolts. We see as modern values corrupted the noble class, and they no longer understood how to lead in a way befitting of the TRUE nature of their subjects, over time dissatisfaction grew as the noble class degenerated, until revolution broke out, first in Russia the France, and America.
These revolutions were the broken back of the proverbial camel, the bloom of Christs superstitions his reversal of natural values was completed. But its fruit was yet to come, The death of God is the final stage under Christ's law. Yet the Death of GOD and the Birth of Horus are the same event. The revaluation of values in the face of the destruction of the old social order, such that the True nature of each individual in cultivated and put to proper use, without dissatisfaction that leads to fear, depression neurosis, crime, and revolt. The Osiris cycle of revolution (Come meet the new boss, same as the old boss) is to be put to an end. An SET being the anti-life dissatisfaction with the world and the subsequent escapism to worlds of fantasy and afterlives, Set being that with which the Christian in his dissatisfaction with life wants salvation from, is to be Conquered by Horus. That is the new Formula bf assessing and supporting the fulfillment of the specific nature of each human being, destroys the dark shadows of dissatisfaction. Thus "SIN" is no more a plague in mankind who no longer feels a need to seek Salvation.
This is what Thelema means to me, and the sort of political-social structure that is required to bring it about
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Heinlein - Specialization is for Insects
"A human being should be able to change a diaper, plan an invasion, butcher a hog, conn a ship, design a building, write a sonnet, balance accounts, build a wall, set a bone, comfort the dying, take orders, give orders, cooperate, act alone, solve equations, analyze a new problem, pitch manure, program a computer, cook a tasty meal, fight efficiently, die gallantly. Specialization is for insects."
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"Today all this is absolutely changed. Every important branch of work is so specialized that a man must give his whole life to his particular job for 40 years or more before he is capable of holding his own in it. Such a man must obviously be chosen from the start on the ground of inclination and capacity. He must be allowed ample leisure. He must be secured freedom from all worries and anxiety, or he will never arrive at competence. A university education is not nearly enough. It is only a general ground-work. When a man leaves a university he wants at least 10 years uninterrupted work in his particular line before he even begins to succeed in it. In other words, the complexity of civilization demands an elaborate caste system." (Crowley)