Naturalistic Occultism

[Modest]

It should be an interesting book. I hate postage fees - if I saw it in my bookshop I would be able to scew through it and have it instantly! Oh well, any reviews of the book?

[Aum418]

@RifRaf said

"Just ordered it tonight and I'm going to read through it the first day it comes. Looks great and rational, as is usual.

All of your stuff is so levelheaded that I am very suprised you are not picked up by a more "major" book distro. But then again, who in the Occult world wants to read material that isn't superstitious and will rip down their dense ideals? It's a shameful truth; but not many."

93,

Llelewyn and others dont want 'levelheaded' books. Besides, I wouldnt want to limit the distribution of my material based on printing runs, etc. Lulu covers all parts from creation to distribution and its all done electronically so I dont have to worry about selling out first editions to continue to the second, etc. Also, I dont have to pay 3 different middlemen a commission (not that Im looking for money but I dont want to lose money!)

Thanks for the nice comments everyone - Id really like to know what you all think once youve gotten it and read it.

93 93/93,
IAO131

[Chris Hanlon]

Very well done. Impressive. Clear and convincing.
In L.V.X.,
chrys333

[Aum418]

@Chris Hanlon said

"Very well done. Impressive. Clear and convincing.
In L.V.X.,
chrys333"

You read the whole book, Chris?

93 93/93,
IAO131

[seekinghga]

,

[jw.]

Naturalistic Occultism neatly encapsulates all of the things which attracted me to Crowley's perspective on magick to begin with. Its size, scope, and depth really make it a good introduction to the concept of "scientific illuminism". I can definitely see myself sharing this book with people who have expressed curiosity about my interest in magick.

I did feel that the impact of group work was a bit understated, especially within the chapter on initiation. Initiation primarily confers a perception of belonging, acceptance, and unity within a particular social reference group. Of course it may be the case that one's reference group is conterminous with the infinite universe, which would be in agreement with the definition presented in Naturalistic Occultism. However, my suspicion is that for many occultists the real-world status of being able to claim to be an Nth degree of some order has more psychological sway than their particular individuation progress.

[Aum418]

@jw. said

"Naturalistic Occultism neatly encapsulates all of the things which attracted me to Crowley's perspective on magick to begin with. Its size, scope, and depth really make it a good introduction to the concept of "scientific illuminism". I can definitely see myself sharing this book with people who have expressed curiosity about my interest in magick.

I did feel that the impact of group work was a bit understated, especially within the chapter on initiation. Initiation primarily confers a perception of belonging, acceptance, and unity within a particular social reference group. Of course it may be the case that one's reference group is conterminous with the infinite universe, which would be in agreement with the definition presented in Naturalistic Occultism. However, my suspicion is that for many occultists the real-world status of being able to claim to be an Nth degree of some order has more psychological sway than their particular individuation progress."

93,

Thanks for the input - the factors of getting degrees in initiatory systems to 'show them off' isnt really treated since that is just basic 'I have more golden tokens/whatever-valuable-something than you' of elementary school but extended - I wanted to focus more on what I perceived as actual initiation. Thanks for the input again though its helpful

IAO131

[Froclown]

Certainly one factor of initiation is that the initiate is induced into a community often an elite community with certain authority. But is this really the primary function of initiation. Is their not some complex bio-physical and psychological and if such a plane as spiritual exists changes on all these aspects of the person. Can not a single man living alone on an island undergo these inner changes with no special training or rituals, but rather these changes are marked by cerian vision, realizations, and a re-crystallizing of one perspective paradigm, along the lines of a new order of synthesis.

One can say that metamorphosis into a butterfly is marked by the caterpillar joining an new elite community, but does this not trivialize the actual changes in the creature itself, regardless to the community it lives in, to the point of totally over looking the fact that a previously flightless being now exists nearly all of its life in he air rather than upon the ground.

Is not the initiated master like the caterpillar, who before was concerned with matters of flesh and earth, barely even aware of the transcendent, astral, or spiritual reality above, but after initiation becomes a native of that higher reality to the point the material world bellow seems trivial.

[jw.]

@Froclown said

"Certainly one factor of initiation is that the initiate is induced into a community often an elite community with certain authority. But is this really the primary function of initiation. Is their not some complex bio-physical and psychological and if such a plane as spiritual exists changes on all these aspects of the person. Can not a single man living alone on an island undergo these inner changes with no special training or rituals, but rather these changes are marked by cerian vision, realizations, and a re-crystallizing of one perspective paradigm, along the lines of a new order of synthesis. "

I don't dispute that some sort of metanoia may occur as a result of initiation (or visions, or other crises). If belonging and acceptance were the only reasons to be initiated, then we'd be as well off joining the local chess club as we would joining some spiritual cadre. The psychological points of initiation are addressed in Naturalistc Occultism, I was just stating that I felt that the sociological points were understated.

@Aum418 said

"
@jw. said
"However, my suspicion is that for many occultists the real-world status of being able to claim to be an Nth degree of some order has more psychological sway than their particular individuation progress."

getting degrees in initiatory systems to 'show them off' isnt really treated since that is just basic 'I have more golden tokens/whatever-valuable-something than you' of elementary school but extended"

When I wrote this, I wasn't thinking as much about people consciously being "show-offs" as I was thinking about the effect that attainment/accomplishment has generally on a person not sufficiently safeguarded against "lust of results". If you feel you have been acknowledged as an adept (either via a physical initiation or some initiatory vision), you may feel more confident in your ritual work (or your forum posts, or whatever) than you did as a neophyte. I'm saying for some it may be this feeling of acknowledgement and not the awakening of initiation which drives the confidence. If you felt the spiritual lineage you belonged to was somehow validated (or invalidated) by some turn of events, that might also have some affect on your confidence, attitude toward results, etc. These are purely hypothetical examples, but I hope they clarify what I was driving at in my prior post.

[Aum418]

@jw. said

"I don't dispute that some sort of metanoia may occur as a result of initiation (or visions, or other crises). If belonging and acceptance were the only reasons to be initiated, then we'd be as well off joining the local chess club as we would joining some spiritual cadre. The psychological points of initiation are addressed in Naturalistc Occultism, I was just stating that I felt that the sociological points were understated."

Which sociological points would you bring up?

"When I wrote this, I wasn't thinking as much about people consciously being "show-offs" as I was thinking about the effect that attainment/accomplishment has generally on a person not sufficiently safeguarded against "lust of results". If you feel you have been acknowledged as an adept (either via a physical initiation or some initiatory vision), you may feel more confident in your ritual work (or your forum posts, or whatever) than you did as a neophyte."

Interesting point

" I'm saying for some it may be this feeling of acknowledgement and not the awakening of initiation which drives the confidence. If you felt the spiritual lineage you belonged to was somehow validated (or invalidated) by some turn of events, that might also have some affect on your confidence, attitude toward results, etc. These are purely hypothetical examples, but I hope they clarify what I was driving at in my prior post."

Definitely true, too, but I am not sure exactly how to express that. Psycholgoically, that is the first thing to think: he has gained new confidence from having his views & ego validated (You are an in-itiate!), not that some 'spiritual current' or some other superstitious idea was activated.

93 93/93
IAO131