Animal Sacrifice.
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I read a book about early warfare in ancient Greece (sorry don't remember the title, it was a while ago). The earliest wars were between city-states over small pieces of territory. The wars were held a certain time of year, and highly ritualized. Musicians stood on the side played a march while the fighting took place. Men did get killed, but as soon as it was clear which side was winning, it would stop. The losing side would flee, and it was considered dishonorable for the winners to pursue them.
Other tribal people have wars where no one gets killed. Such as "counting coup" among some native American tribes.
But then even prehistory also shows evidence of horrible cases of mass murder and genocide.
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nonfatal contests are fine when we want to see who gets to wear a hat or hold a trophy.
However when their is one well that will supply 50 people and 200 people want to drink from it, the only solution is violent. If a law of honor or decree of law is made that this 50 wins the well, no matter how high valued the other 150 people may want to be, when the thirst comes, they will kill their brothers for a quenching sip of blood.
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@Tornado93 said
"I read a book about early warfare in ancient Greece (sorry don't remember the title, it was a while ago). The earliest wars were between city-states over small pieces of territory. The wars were held a certain time of year, and highly ritualized. Musicians stood on the side played a march while the fighting took place. Men did get killed, but as soon as it was clear which side was winning, it would stop. The losing side would flee, and it was considered dishonorable for the winners to pursue them.
Other tribal people have wars where no one gets killed. Such as "counting coup" among some native American tribes.
But then even prehistory also shows evidence of horrible cases of mass murder and genocide."
this is true.... we live in a brutal and savage culture; and it's one thing that bothers me about anyone who refers to Nativist culture as "primitive" or "savage". Clearly, it is the other way around.
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Well to try to pull this back on topic, I would respect animal sacrifice if I was invited to a tradition where this was the norm; perhaps if I went to Haitian Voudou ceremony and they were sacrificing a chicken or goat.
I would not go out of my way to sacrifice an animal on my own, for a ritual.
Though, as I said, I do think it would be a good idea for me to slaughter my own food sometime; which I have never done. And I'm sure I would make a ritual out of it.
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@nderabloodredsky said
"this is true.... we live in a brutal and savage culture; and it's one thing that bothers me about anyone who refers to Nativist culture as "primitive" or "savage". Clearly, it is the other way around."
BTW, these words not be offensive if we look closely at them and see what they actually mean. "Primitive" (like "primal") just means "first," i.e., early, original, etc. "Savage" simply means "from the forests." All of the other meanings are secondary ideas we've attached to "earlier civilizations living in the forest."
OTOH I suspect your understabanble umbrage is about what someone actually meant by the words - which was probably somewhat pejorative.
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@Jim Eshelman said
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@nderabloodredsky said
"this is true.... we live in a brutal and savage culture; and it's one thing that bothers me about anyone who refers to Nativist culture as "primitive" or "savage". Clearly, it is the other way around."BTW, these words not be offensive if we look closely at them and see what they actually mean. "Primitive" (like "primal") just means "first," i.e., early, original, etc. "Savage" simply means "from the forests." All of the other meanings are secondary ideas we've attached to "earlier civilizations living in the forest."
OTOH I suspect your understabanble umbrage is about what someone actually meant by the words - which was probably somewhat pejorative."
Yes, it's that and more. Same thing with the term "pagan", meaning country folk literally, but to others something nefarious at best.
You see, it's personal with me. I identify with the world tribes that have been slaughtered, bribed, and what's left, tamed and used for nefarious ends, to continue the nefarious plans of those who would enslave the entire planet!
(note: I am aware I used nefarious 3x: [Latin nefārius, from nefās, crime, transgression : ne-, not; see ne in Indo-European roots + fās, divine law; see dhē- in Indo-European roots.] they are breaking divine law!)
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It was certainly not a breaking of divine law, to displace Isis aeon tribal societies, with Osiris society, with its centralized metropolis, its ONE absolute God, to replace all other gods, its ONE single global culture to replace all the tribal customs, myths, beliefs, and unique identity, the sacrifice of all to the ONE true political rule. Certainly Christianity and most especially the Roman church did a great job of destroying the pagan tribal cultures often by fire (how many where burned literally at the stake, if not figuratively by the hands of passionate bishops). And when the superstition became eventually outlived its power, well then it simply destroyed its own husk and like a phoenix from the ashes arose anew in the form of liberal humanism and enlightenment values that culminated in the crisis of modernism. (Osiris was slain by his own shadow)
Yet as it is written "My prophet is a fool with his one one one"
Shall not the Horus child come forth from the void left in the wake of modernism and slay Seth, the shadow of Osiris, and to replace the rule of unity with that special sort of simultaneous annihilation and duality.
We can not restore the pagan tribes of the past, nor can we continue the Osiris formula of destroying (sacrificing) all than deviate from central concept of unity. Instead the new formula is we must learn to accept all things, the good, the bad and the ugly, also the just plane bizaar or incomprehensible, and turn our backs to nothing, continually synthesizing every new experience. Yet each of us shall synthesize ALL in a unique way, according to the unique WILL and perspective of the individual. And We must never stop learning, never stop synthesizing, never stop destroying ourselves that we may renew ourselves.
We can not hide in the old ways, be they Isis, Osiris, or Set, but we must not reject them either.
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@Froclown said
"It was certainly not a breaking of divine law, to displace Isis aeon tribal societies, with Osiris society, with its centralized metropolis, its ONE absolute God, to replace all other gods, its ONE single global culture to replace all the tribal customs, myths, beliefs, and unique identity, the sacrifice of all to the ONE true political rule. Certainly Christianity and most especially the Roman church did a great job of destroying the pagan tribal cultures often by fire (how many where burned literally at the stake, if not figuratively by the hands of passionate bishops). And when the superstition became eventually outlived its power, well then it simply destroyed its own husk and like a phoenix from the ashes arose anew in the form of liberal humanism and enlightenment values that culminated in the crisis of modernism. (Osiris was slain by his own shadow)
Yet as it is written "My prophet is a fool with his one one one"
Shall not the Horus child come forth from the void left in the wake of modernism and slay Seth, the shadow of Osiris, and to replace the rule of unity with that special sort of simultaneous annihilation and duality.
We can not restore the pagan tribes of the past, nor can we continue the Osiris formula of destroying (sacrificing) all than deviate from central concept of unity. Instead the new formula is we must learn to accept all things, the good, the bad and the ugly, also the just plane bizaar or incomprehensible, and turn our backs to nothing, continually synthesizing every new experience. Yet each of us shall synthesize ALL in a unique way, according to the unique WILL and perspective of the individual. And We must never stop learning, never stop synthesizing, never stop destroying ourselves that we may renew ourselves.
We can not hide in the old ways, be they Isis, Osiris, or Set, but we must not reject them either."
I'm so glad you have everything figured out; I can go rest now....
I will not tolerate people quoting religious books as justification for slaughter and slavery. Do you think you have some special exception?? Does not the comment warn against the Book?> Doesn't the Book explicitly say it's beyond your comprehension?? Doesn't Class A mean it's meant to inform on a supra-intellectual level??
Maybe you'll think twice when martial law is enacted and you're chipped.
Maybe you would think twice if you saw the unity and eternal values in world mythology. Remember, as above, so below. You can't "replace" or repress an internal "god force", it simply is .... you can either accept it or face the consequences.Lastly, how about state a single idea clearly, make your point and move on to the next point? reading your post is like watching a monkey spasmodically throw a temper in a cage. But perhaps that analogy isn't too far off the mark. Your mind is in a cage and your ego reacts. Take my advice, think for a second; think about what I am going to say to you... the matrix is real. It exists as an analogy to real life, and has been for centuries, and is intensifying rapidly. You and I are under constant psychological programming....You are simply justifying a system that bred you and trained you to think this way. If you could get away from that, you would see it.
And one more thing, when I say I take it personally, I mean it, so don't Bullsh*t me!
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Underabloodredsky, what are you blithering about.
I thought quite cleary about what I wrote, and it was perfectly consistent with the Osiris aeon to displace pagan culture with centralized world order, and it is perfectly in accord with Horus aeon divine law to re-establish to some extent the old world order but in a new way.
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@RifRaf said
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@nderabloodredsky said
"But perhaps that analogy isn't too far off the mark. Your mind is in a cage and your ego reacts.And one more thing, when I say I take it personally, I mean it, so don't Bullsh*t me!"
By the way you came at him with your above post it seems like you need to "practice what you preach" because it is apparent that your Ego is definitely functioning on an exaggerated level."
I think that's a bunch of B.S. as well.
To be be emotional is how things get done; it's certainly how magick gets done.
Also, don't defend someone who doesn't show respect.... If you read my initial post, I said I take it personally, then he went right on ahead and challenged my post directly. I laid in to him and I will lay into any one that defends slavery and death under any circumstances, but especially under the guise of religion.
What kind of person are you and what kind of community is this that let's that kind of rubbish go unchallenged? Did you read his response, he justifies "world order" and "displacing" people. Doesn't body read history?
Don't you realise that there is no more dangerous talk to human freedom than that? -
@nderabloodredsky said
"To be be emotional is how things get done; it's certainly how magick gets done. "
Emotional force - desire - yes. But not reactivity. Emotional reactivity is a foe of the magician.
BTW, I'm not saying anyone here was reactive - I didn't read those particular posts closely enough to make that judgment. I'm only commenting on the one sentence above, in and of itself.
"What kind of person are you and what kind of community is this that let's that kind of rubbish go unchallenged? Did you read his response, he justifies "world order" and "displacing" people. Doesn't body read history?
Don't you realise that there is no more dangerous talk to human freedom than that?"Speaking as site administrator, I restrict myself more than I restrict others. There are bounds that the particular individual is kept within; but also, as a counter-balance, I am more permissive with ideas I don't agree with. Every now and then, as a participant of this forum, I'd like to shut him down as totally destructive and entirely off the track of Thelema (which, usually, he is); but as administrator I don't do this because we need room for a wide range of ideas (especially those that aren't mine!).
Which means (among other things): Other forum participants need to do exactly what you're doing, and speaking up against things they think are simply wrong. If this is done intelligently, as respectfully as possible, etc., then it strengthens the forum far more than excluding the original ideas would do.
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@RifRaf said
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@nderabloodredsky said
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@RifRaf said
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@nderabloodredsky said
"But perhaps that analogy isn't too far off the mark. Your mind is in a cage and your ego reacts.And one more thing, when I say I take it personally, I mean it, so don't Bullsh*t me!"
By the way you came at him with your above post it seems like you need to "practice what you preach" because it is apparent that your Ego is definitely functioning on an exaggerated level."
I think that's a bunch of B.S. as well.
To be be emotional is how things get done; it's certainly how magick gets done.
Also, don't defend someone who doesn't show respect.... If you read my initial post, I said I take it personally, then he went right on ahead and challenged my post directly. I laid in to him and I will lay into any one that defends slavery and death under any circumstances, but especially under the guise of religion.
What kind of person are you and what kind of community is this that let's that kind of rubbish go unchallenged? Did you read his response, he justifies "world order" and "displacing" people. Doesn't body read history?
"Yes, "body" reads history. Did I ever say anywhere that I agreed with him? No. I also never said one thing about anyone being "emotional" either. I don't know where you got that idea. Lastly, even if I was "defending him" (which I wasn't) I can defend or back whoever the hell I want to, or whatever idea I please.
Displacing the Pagan culture was something which Osirian religons did, it isn't that hard to see. Justifying "world order" and "displacement" isn't always a bad thing, depending on the context. It seems like you are skimming through what he is saying and seeing words which you don't agree with and jumping to conclusions without any clear reason why. Your posts are just pointing out what problems you have with what he posted, you have yet to post a solution. Complaining is easy.
I think you missed the entire idea behind those posts."
You can certainly defend "whoever the hell" you want to, and I will certainly attack any idea that I want to.
And yours and 99% of peoples' reading of history is FALSE because it is not true; it's altered and perverted to serve the official propaganda. Real history equals truth, and that is always the first thing to be eliminated. Official religions (read=centralised), run by evil people (at least) who infiltrated and took over all instruments of power (religious, political, moral, social etc.) in order to enslave and kill pagans, (read=free worshiping, free political, free moralising, free social) people. They in turn took the those enslaved, whoever was left standing, and brainwashed their offspring into cooperating and even justifying their actions and further plans to enslave even more peoples through colonisation. So, I assert plainly and vehemently that centralised government, whether political, religious, or moral is ALWAYS bad, bad on principle, because it contradicts the rights of the INDIVIDUAL!!!
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@Jim Eshelman said
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@nderabloodredsky said
"To be be emotional is how things get done; it's certainly how magick gets done. "Emotional force - desire - yes. But not reactivity. Emotional reactivity is a foe of the magician.
BTW, I'm not saying anyone here was reactive - I didn't read those particular posts closely enough to make that judgment. I'm only commenting on the one sentence above, in and of itself.
"What kind of person are you and what kind of community is this that let's that kind of rubbish go unchallenged? Did you read his response, he justifies "world order" and "displacing" people. Doesn't body read history?
Don't you realise that there is no more dangerous talk to human freedom than that?"Speaking as site administrator, I restrict myself more than I restrict others. There are bounds that the particular individual is kept within; but also, as a counter-balance, I am more permissive with ideas I don't agree with. Every now and then, as a participant of this forum, I'd like to shut him down as totally destructive and entirely off the track of Thelema (which, usually, he is); but as administrator I don't do this because we need room for a wide range of ideas (especially those that aren't mine!).
Which means (among other things): Other forum participants need to do exactly what you're doing, and speaking up against things they think are simply wrong. If this is done intelligently, as respectfully as possible, etc., then it strengthens the forum far more than excluding the original ideas would do."
I wholly agree with not shutting down free speech, for the more common reasons, but also for even more important reasons:
I want to know who my enemies are, or at least where these illogical, irrational and destructive attitudes and assumptions are coming from so that I can confront them.
BTW, the average person will not comprehend logic, but they will comprehend emotion!
Does any body not see how "civilised" people are emotionally castrated! The argument usually is fear based, "if you don't then you are a bad person and society will be bad." Has any one bothered to check that silent assumption empirically? I was born into a "primitive" culture and they are far more humane and human, i.e. in touch with their feelings than any "civilised" man.
So have your world order, your centralised religious/political/social/moral government. It can even be "Thelema"! Hoo Ray!
Just wait for the other shoe to drop, because it won't be you who is in charge. The people who will be (and are) in charge don't care what the form is. Their only religion is, "Divide and conquer." -
@RifRaf said
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@nderabloodredsky said
"Does any body not see how "civilised" people are emotionally castrated! The argument usually is fear based, "if you don't then you are a bad person and society will be bad." Has any one bothered to check that silent assumption empirically? I was born into a "primitive" culture and they are far more humane and human, i.e. in touch with their feelings than any "civilised" man."I lived in a city squat for 2 years with a ton of Punk rock kids and "primitive" crusties while I was addicted to Heroin and living on the streets, and I can agree that these people were far more civil and humane than any white collar jerk-off that buys into capitalism and sunday drives to the church with their family. But this is what we live in, so we need to adapt and evolve (but not throw away our own standards and ideals) just like most everyone else has to do in their countries. I don't wholly agree that it is "fear based", I see it more as a survival tool."
I respect that.
However, I don't agree with your notion of adapt and evolve and survive. I want to live, and live fully!
These are false notions of evolution and adaptation. The argument is, take option "a" ( which is bad) or take option "b" (which is worse). It's an either/or, dichotomous, irrational argument, but one that is used most freely and is at the root of almost all false assumptions. (see Alfred Korzybski).
The reality is we have many options for living, society and government, only limited by our own minds. It supports my argument, I think, if you look at the trends in modern politics, and see how both democracy and communism have moved towards centralised government, which totally contradicts both those theories of government.
Lastly, let me say this: you said that I am just complaining, and that, that is easy to do. First of all, I am not just complaining, and secondly complaining isn't really that easy if you keep going when people want you to stop.
What I'm doing is fighting. I am fighting injustice and ignorance. My weapon is my pen, or in this case my keyboard. I am taking the fight out. Out to the internet, to my work, family, friends, acquaintances. I fight through my art. And I fight to win, which means I don't "react", but think; but I don't think too much, and end up doing nothing for fear of mistakes or failure.
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@RifRaf said
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@nderabloodredsky said
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@RifRaf said
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@nderabloodredsky said
"But perhaps that analogy isn't too far off the mark. Your mind is in a cage and your ego reacts.And one more thing, when I say I take it personally, I mean it, so don't Bullsh*t me!"
By the way you came at him with your above post it seems like you need to "practice what you preach" because it is apparent that your Ego is definitely functioning on an exaggerated level."
I think that's a bunch of B.S. as well.
To be be emotional is how things get done; it's certainly how magick gets done.
Also, don't defend someone who doesn't show respect.... If you read my initial post, I said I take it personally, then he went right on ahead and challenged my post directly. I laid in to him and I will lay into any one that defends slavery and death under any circumstances, but especially under the guise of religion.
What kind of person are you and what kind of community is this that let's that kind of rubbish go unchallenged? Did you read his response, he justifies "world order" and "displacing" people. Doesn't body read history?"
Did I ever say anywhere that I agreed with him? No. I also never said one thing about anyone being "emotional" either. I don't know where you got that idea."
Its called 'projection' my boy!
" Lastly, even if I was "defending him" (which I wasn't) I can defend or back whoever the hell I want to, or whatever idea I please. "
Not if you disagree with my point-of-view, then you are a liar and a cheat and an ego-inflated maniac, of course!
"Displacing the Pagan culture was something which Osirian religons did"
Technically, a lot of those Pagan cultures WERE Osirian religions. The idea is so vaguely defined that most pagan groups would fall under something like Osirian + Isisian (is that a word? now it is)
"Justifying "world order" and "displacement" isn't always a bad thing, depending on the context. It seems like you are skimming through what he is saying and seeing words which you don't agree with and jumping to conclusions without any clear reason why."
Its called internet forums, my boy! Welcome!
"Afterall, complaining is easy."
Actually taking the time for understanding another's argument? Hard.
IAO131
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I do not see what your problem is. A hurricane is not a violation of "divine law" and yet hurricanes cause mass destruction and death. So it is with an Aeon, which is a manifestation of zeitgeist, perhaps you could say that the theory of aeons replaces the single world Zeitgeist with multiple currents or geists that simultaneously interweave the tapestry of history.
The current of history called Osiris was Death, Destruction and preparation for Rebirth. In fact the Osiris Aeon denied that all other pagan currents and sought to unify the whole world as one single zeitgeist. Thus it was perfectly in line with the forces of history that the western culture which is to say Christianity (perverted Judeaism with exaggerated slave morality and a chip of resentment turned against the world) The way an aeon manifests is a result of its magus, in this case Christ, so if you want to complain about the violent way in which the aeon of Osiris unfolded itself. Then direct your anger at the one who "came with a sword" to established the divine law and used his power to "cast fire upon the earth and wait".
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@Froclown said
"I do not see what your problem is."
The "world order" of Roman slaughter and enslavement of peoples and perversion of Religion, the Crusades, Inquisition, Burning of Witches, Heretics and Magicians, Colonisation, the Slave Trade, "displacement" of Native Americans on both North & South Continents, WWI, WWII, and other recent wars, famine in Africa, corporate ownership & control of the food supply and genetic patenting of food, bankrupt and indebted third world nations through the IMF, and the U.S. not far behind.
That is my problem.
What is the cause? False religion and government. You bring up Zeitgeist, have you seen the film? It makes the point. There is a brief scene of a human hand (pentagram) doing arithmetic (science and Quabalah) and this is forcibly taken away and replaced with the Bible and nation-flag (false or perverted symbols and language=irrational thoughts, false assumptions=the method of mental slavery=black magick).
@Froclown said
"The current of history called Osiris was Death, Destruction and preparation for Rebirth. In fact the Osiris aeon denied that all other pagan currents and sought to unify the whole world as one single zeitgeist. Thus it was perfectly in line with the forces of history that the western culture which is to say Christianity (perverted Judaism with exaggerated slave morality and a chip of resentment turned against the world) The way an aeon manifests is a result of its magus, in this case Christ, so if you want to complain about the violent way in which the aeon of Osiris unfolded itself. Then direct your anger at the one who "came with a sword" to established the divine law and used his power to "cast fire upon the earth and wait"."
Lies.
Confusion.
See:
books.google.com/books?id=SB_y56Vlz5kC&pg=PA60#v=onepage&q=&f=false
Hurricanes may kill people, but "Aeons" don't.
Any one who uses religion or politics or morality to slaughter and enslave people is nefarious (against divine law) because it violates several principles, such as Love and Personal Freedom.
Your warped perceptions of Thelema and presumptuous use of "The Book of the Law" as justification for "world order" and the "displacement" of people is no different from the perpetrators of the above quoted history justifying their deeds by the Bible, Torah, Koran, or various political creeds etc.
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Umm, I don't think I justified anything.
Nor do I think anything needs to be justified.
Its not a normative issue.
The film Zeitgeist was a bunch of mis-applied and confused occultism and media distortion to present liberal propaganda, blaming republican administration for 9-11 and confusing this with astrology and other such nonsense.All I said was, what makes you thing love and freedom = divine order.
Their is no divine order, their is only A-moral natural order. and that is survival of the fittest and generally everyone out for himself first and concern for others only after oneself is satisfied. That is the Divine law.
The old aeon was marked by violence and turmoil because technology increased so fast and cultures were forced into oppositions and competition for the same property right. Its not a matter of morality, just of pure economics, as Crowley put it "ethics in boulderdash"
Do what Thu Wilt shall be the whole of the law
That means we no longer believe in the fairy tail that their is a divine ruler who cares for us and a wants us to be happy and safe and to feel warm fuzzy feelings, The Gods are tyrant, the kinds are often huckseters and loons, the sun is as likely to warm our bones as bake us alive (or give us cancer). It's every man for himself now. But in this is joy of freedom, the freedom to race and to Rape to rip and to rend, the world apart with no guilt and no authority ta shame you.
Thelema is liberty, it is liberty it grow and expand, to create and to destroy as you will, it is the liberty of the fire cracker to take as much of the world with it as it blows!!
Ra-Hoor-Kuit is a God of War and severity. The Thelemite is a Wild beast set free, he is Fenris wolf his chain broken an the day of Ragnarok. A domestic dogwthe day his master died. God is dead, its time we leave behind our domestic conditioning and learn to be wild untamed beasts again!!!
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@Froclown said
"Their is no divine order"
And there you have it folks, the insight of the fellow not long ago claiming to be a 9=2 (spelling mistakes aside).
"their is only A-moral natural order. and that is survival of the fittest and generally everyone out for himself first and concern for others only after oneself is satisfied. That is the Divine law."
I might agree we could come to agree on the definition of "oneself."
The thing is, as one progresses up the Tree, one's defiition of "self" changes (many times) until the truth of the above is almost the opposite of what it appears to say on the surface.
"Do what Thu Wilt shall be the whole of the law "
Who is Thu?
"That means we no longer believe in the fairy tail that their is a divine ruler who cares for us and a wants us to be happy and safe and to feel warm fuzzy feelings, The Gods are tyrant, the kinds are often huckseters and loons"
Your gods are projections of your own traits.
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it was but a projection into Gevurah.
And to be fair, I merely claimed the right to take on the 8=3 degree, in so much as I have undergone an experience that very much sounds similar to Crowley's abyss experience. Then of course the work of 8=3 that of preparing a temple in hopes that the secret chiefs would find it worthy it dwell within, or put into non-mystical language. To create at external school which can only prove connection to the inner school by way of time and observation of the fruits of ones efforts.
I see no reason why anything about Thelema should require any Gods or any other non-sense about the divine and supernatiural forces or events. That is all Crowley's waxing poetic, but what he really means, behind all the silly poetic metaphor is pure materialistic, physical science, nothing to do with actual Gods or other mystical hocus pocus. other than as literary devices and ae stand in explanations, when his ere did not yet offer science to his satisfaction.