Ye shall gather store of women .
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@Labyrinthus said
"
@Solitarius said
"I wouldn't call myself a Liberal in your sense of the word,"Right, as I pointed out before, most liberals will not admit that they are liberal.
@Solitarius said
"I see no reason why men should behave like animals"
Another classic. No one here has suggested doing so, have they? (Other than quoting Crowley... is that what you are referring to?)"I said "Liberal" in Your sense of the word, which I take to mean some kind of left wing soft-headed sense.
If you were to go and behave exactly as proscribed in chapter 3 of Liber Al how long do you think you would last?
I suppose you could try sacrificing children and eating the flesh of your enemies, and a true fundamentalist would most likely try to do just that, but it is important to take these things with a pinch of salt, (a big pinch)
From the fundamentalist viewpoint anyone who doesn't go out and behave in the hyper aggressive way advocated by the book is a liberal, it depends on what level you choose to view things from.
If you read the chapter closely it appears to be a set of instructions for Crowley himself, and besides all that, isn't following some pre-determined set of behaviours without good reason the anti-thesis of Thelema?
To me this point is what seperates a Thelemite from a Crowleyite. -
I don't know that I ever said that it was wise to follow book 3 as if it were a set of specific instructions.
What I did say was that we can't just ignore human nature, and call our substituted ideal man (Which I deem a rather pathetic creature) human nature. Which is what humanism does and then it proceeds to one by one remove from any actual human being all the qualities that make them unique and exceptional, once those are removed it continues to remove all qualities until we get down to all humans are "Just human" which is to say we are all compared on that most basic level of similarity, ie that we exist at all. Putting Humans, concepts, animals and rocks all lumped into the same category, which one must not ever be superior to any other. We must force the facts so than nothing is exceptional, that nothing has any unique ability or purpose that might in any way make it better than anything else. We must not fight or be aggressive, because the poor humanists have a delicate sensibility and we might upset his digestion. There must be no competition, we are all equal and we "deserve" to have all that we need to be happy, safe and never experience any emotional upsets.
Quoth the humanist: It upsets me to see people fighting over race and gender, we must deny that race and gender exist, we are all the same. Please stop being mean, please stop slinging mud and insults, it does so upset poor little me, who is weak and frail and can not defend myself. Oh please stop being aggressive and competitive, it reminds me of my own frailty and unworthiness to live.
That is not Thelema.
While there is a degree of relativism in Thelema the conclusion is not the same.
The humanist says, truth has a degree of relativeness, so we must accept all statements, beliefs and ideals as equal and all hold hands and sing kumbaya together as one big happy human family.Thelema seeing that there is some degree of variation in beliefs, instead proclaims, "Choose ye an Island" and "Fortify it". That is take a side any side that suits your nature, build up an arsenal and go out into the world and FIGHT as brother. Fight for the glory and honor of your chosen island of belief, if you are a man, then Men rule women drool, Go forth with into the gender war with all the misogyny your WILL can muster. If you happen to have been born a woman, Then go forth into that gender war with all the manipulation and seductive power that is at the disposal of your gender. Fight for the flag of your own WILL and the ideals than reflect it. (But always unto ME)
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@Seraph said
"This is why the are so few women in Thelema."
At least the groups that are dominated by that sort of nonsense.
I think ToT and other similar groups have less issues with demographic disparity.By the way, if the 'truth' of existence and human nature is exactly as some imagine it is, then I'm at a loss for how exactly a small group of wimpy, PC, guilt-ridden, liberals and humanists is forcing the lot of humanity to pretend to be something it is not... I think the simpler answer is that any large group that has persistent, across the board, demographic disparities is probably discriminatory or out-of-balance.
The issues with anima rejection and distorted relationships with the shadow (both of which are very common in modern western society, from what I have seen), are as clear as day to anyone who has read even a little Jung.
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People do have a way of putting up barriers
@AvshalomBinyamin said
"By the way, if the 'truth' of existence and human nature is exactly as some imagine it is, then I'm at a loss for how exactly a small group of wimpy, PC, guilt-ridden, liberals and humanists is forcing the lot of humanity to pretend to be something it is not... I think the simpler answer is that any large group that has persistent, across the board, demographic disparities is probably discriminatory or out-of-balance."
personally I think its more likely that the "truth" of it is that most humans are just as docile as those pc liberals I keep hearing about so long as they have a full trough and hay in the stable.
The Thelemic "dream" is just like the American dream, its a dream; an ideal; not something that will ever be widespread, simply because Human animals don't like change. -
Perhaps, since living your own life is a very daunting task if you're not used to the idea (I know I grew up stamping down my will for the sake of someone else's misguided idealism). But I am optimistic. If I can change, I think anyone can.
After all, if there is a better way of existing, it will become self-evident, and will be the inevitable course of humanity, in spite of setbacks. Most of these debates are just intellectual exercises anyway.
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Solitarius, 93,
You wrote:
"The Thelemic "dream" is just like the American dream, its a dream; an ideal; not something that will ever be widespread, simply because Human animals don't like change."
Since the 1950s in particular, huge amounts of American dream-style notions and capabilities have spread around the world. Simply, many, many people have more stuff.
Similarly, Thelemic ideas galore have been propagated - on sexual relationships, human rights (in the sense of such rights PERMITTING people to express their True Wills more freely, without harsh legal consequences), wider acceptance of the notion of pursuing mystical ideas, or the availability of ways, Eastern & Western, to pursue same. And so on. Maybe the animal side of humans doesn't change a lot, but the more interesting bits of human consciousness are in constant flux, and progressively more open to greater change. The fact that most commentators (blogers, journalists, pundits of all stripes) write mostly about what freaks them out, not what is improving, just establishes the existence of an enduring stratum of morose paranoia.
Give the Aeon what it needs - a century or two to re-shape human existence and consciousness.
93 93/93,
Edward
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93
Most of the freedoms we in the west enjoy are limited to the west, you wouldn't go to the middle east and talk about religious freedom unless you wanted to wind up in prison.
It may be true that Humanity is slowly waking up from its Aeon old sleep, I hope so, but the pessimist in me sees only dumb people being exploited by richer dumb people who are in no hurry to wake anybody up to the fact.
And what does more stuff give us? within limits, more tools to express ourselves is fine, but (myself included) the tendency is to become addicted to playing games or otherwise hypnotise ourselves with toys, fast cars, wide screen TV's, crap. they don't need to subdue the masses any more, we do it for them.For what its worth I don't think it really matters in the long run, so long as our little bit of consciousness of a planet survives long enough to learn to regulate itself rather than destroy itself through greed and the inability to control it's baser urges.
And if not, there are other worlds than this.93 93/93
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93,
Too much stuff can be a problem. Some stuff is good to have.
I've had some very interesting conversations in the Middle East about religious freedom. We kept our voices low, but people there are nowhere near as uptight about this topic as we keep being told. Most actually enjoy private debate.
Pessimism was the disease of the 20th Century. Thelema is the cure. Our problem is, we want it all to change now, or at least soon. But Thelema puts history in the context of aeons, not years. I don't think we give that notion much thought, especially if we're focused on the widescreen TV and such. I ditched my TV some years ago. It was a small move in the direction of not being so controlled. Now, if I can kick my addiction to online news.....
93 93/93,
Edward
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@Edward Mason said
"93,
Too much stuff can be a problem. Some stuff is good to have.
I've had some very interesting conversations in the Middle East about religious freedom. We kept our voices low, but people there are nowhere near as uptight about this topic as we keep being told. Most actually enjoy private debate.
Pessimism was the disease of the 20th Century. Thelema is the cure. Our problem is, we want it all to change now, or at least soon. But Thelema puts history in the context of aeons, not years. I don't think we give that notion much thought, especially if we're focused on the widescreen TV and such. I ditched my TV some years ago. It was a small move in the direction of not being so controlled. Now, if I can kick my addiction to online news.....
93 93/93,
Edward"93
I'll go with you on both those.
Having been in the middle east myself I found that people out there are pretty normal in general, there are still dick-heads, and people who will try to kill you for a few dollars, but there are also cool people.I can well remember when I was posted in Basrah, me and my Corporal spent a lot of time fishing in the shat-al-arab canal and we used to chat to a couple of Iraqi blokes who were working on site, because we were in civilian clothing and unarmed a lot of the time they didn't treat us like Soldiers, but like humans, and we used to chat with them about all sorts of things, really cool people, and they used to get fishing bait for us when they went out because we were more or less stuck on the base.
I know what you mean about pessimism, I'm prone to it myself, that's why I don't watch a lot of TV, A friend of mine comes from Hungary and he says he's much happier in England because he doesn't have a clue what's going on in the world as he doesn't watch the news or scan headlines as he would in his native language.
For myself I never had a TV as I hate the damned things, I rarely listen to radio either.93 93/93
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@Froclown said
"Quoth the humanist: It upsets me to see people fighting over race and gender, we must deny that race and gender exist, we are all the same. Please stop being mean, please stop slinging mud and insults, it does so upset poor little me, who is weak and frail and can not defend myself. Oh please stop being aggressive and competitive, it reminds me of my own frailty and unworthiness to live."
In a way, you are right: there is a type of human being whose frailty is exposed by any interaction with a stronger will. Yet, at the same time, there is a healthy portion of humanity ready to accept their True Wills as such, needing only a fitting example to inform them of their capacities.
"Love all, lest there be a King concealed." --not, "Hate all, until they prove themselves a King."
The "stamp down the wretched" attitude is something I cannot argue or disprove; nor would I try to. Yet, on the other hand, I am conscious of a certain kind of strength which needs no proof to substantiate its authority. The truly righteous man has no need to exert his authority over the weaker members of his species, as if to prove himself the master. Such is weakness.
Hence: "Argue not..."
As to the ideal man: such are the Gods and Goddesses of old. It is by the invocation of these that we attain to the Highest: the meeting of macro- and microcosm. What matters it if these ideals exist or do not exist? What need for argument and proof? The Higher type of Mankind Knows, Wills, Dares, and keeps Silent.
Liber AL is by no means a manifesto of tyranny. Even the act of cruelty should be refined by the true silence of strength.
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Okay, to get back to the Topic of this particular thread...
How many men trying to prove the superiority of their testosterone, who claim know the "truth" about the nature of both sexes have ever at any point acquired a "store of women" ? Let alone have a healthy relationship with one... Do something more than grudge the opposite sex because of your inability to attract any... Did you knock up the woman you are with to make sure she wouldn't go anywhere else or at least give her a good STD to be ashamed about? OR perhaps you got a virgin or something near to that, then watch every move she makes so she never knows anything more than your short grunting spasm that you call sex? Or do you spend your time at strip clubs or escort services? Has the porn habit been getting violent lately? DO you spend time justifying you naughty little habits and, in turn, project YOUR insecurities onto others?
Yes, I agree generalizations are useful, but make sure those generalizations are well founded... I mean geeze does no one realize that they were making Barbie dolls into the 90s that said things like, "Math is hard..." and only talked about shopping and boys? Have you ever watched a Disney film or any film where the Princess is only important when she is rescued by the Prince? Ever notice that advertisements for cleaning product are geared towards women? I don;t know of any particular genetic trait that makes women better at tidiness than men. Maybe your vision is so distorted because you are so sexually pathetic that you need to take out your "anger" on "moody" women. BTW maybe if we allowed women to be conditioned with role options other than house wife into society women would not portray such "moodiness."
I mean COME ON you pathetic losers who could not get sex without some sort of bribe and pay attention you sound like stupid a*oles vomiting out the SH you have been spoon fed. Maybe I should come along and take "your" women into my harem, at least they would get shagged the right way and would no longer be so "moody." And when you come to reclaim your now "frenzied" and "wild" women they will turn on you and rip you limb from limb in their mad hysteria because you have tried to force a veil of modesty and self-loathing upon their heads.
All the while I will be drunken and well sexed as usual, and then their will be more little versions of me in the future (smart and good looking with an excellent sense of humor).
72
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I have been reading all these silly statements and I have come to the conclusion they are made by 14-15 year old boys with raging hormones and horrible pimples. I would like you to tell your mother what you think about women so you can get a good slap on your head and no t.v. for a month.
Seems some teenagers have taken the patriarch period really seriously and even in 2010 cannot let go.
Without a female there is no future, the present you owe to a female so do you the past.
If we are made in the image of the Creator, do you truly believe the main force that keeps the human race alive is a "helper" and a nothing?
Maybe you need to re-look at what causes males to fear female power so much they must keep her down. -
@Froclown said
"It means for a woman that she ought to make sure that the right man stocks her up and that under his umbrella she can achieve her Feminine WILL, which is undoubtedly to use her "charms" to manipulate this man into providing her with base material comforts the sort of shallow pointless crap that women like. Shiny stones, fancy garments, new shoes etc. To shaw her off and breed from her a son, that is a continuation of his father's achievements, so than she can wallow in her material things and play her stupid little games of blackmail and envy with her sisters.
Men should store up women, because it is a sign that a man is powerful enough to waste his excess on lower planes, on base material nonsense, like females and the crass things they live for.
Also women can be useful for sex magick, I mean even the best quality ink pen needs something to smear itself on, if it expects to manifest visible signs.
Of course there are ritual formula that avoid contamination with the lower planes all together, if one is so inclined, Certain forms of Eucharist for example. Though some of these deal with the 2 of wands, a card that might give some men apprehension."
The Sufi in me wants all hearts to ache with love til they bleed, but knows that you can't know this until you can surrender yourself to it, and that means throwing yourself to chance every time we meet someone closely.
You've been unlucky in love. I'm guessing you're single, perhaps recently.
It hurts, yes. I'm getting the sense you'd rather be celibate than get hurt again.
You'll get over it. It wont hurt less with time, but the scars will fade. Age teaches wisdom, and the hurt helps us to love. You won't find what you thought was love again until you can be less angry.
You can't receive the kisses of Nuit until you can love her with all your heart.
Compassion is the vice of Kings; who else can afford such an expensive luxury?
Veil not your vices in virtuous words; Every man and every woman is a star.
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@Solitarius said
"I've not read him, I'll give it a look if I can remember the name.
I have to admit I really like the Muslim world view when you divorce it from Religious dogma, they have a very earthy take on things."Oh absolutely, it's the Sufis that truly are sublime IMO; I see it as simply a synonym - they are merely other words for the same thing. Hearing an eloquent dervish waxing poetic about the ocean of divine love is something else; substitute your favourite goddesses of love and the comparisons of hermetic Qabalah are obvious!
