Ye shall gather store of women .
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@Seraph said
"This is why the are so few women in Thelema."
At least the groups that are dominated by that sort of nonsense.
I think ToT and other similar groups have less issues with demographic disparity.By the way, if the 'truth' of existence and human nature is exactly as some imagine it is, then I'm at a loss for how exactly a small group of wimpy, PC, guilt-ridden, liberals and humanists is forcing the lot of humanity to pretend to be something it is not... I think the simpler answer is that any large group that has persistent, across the board, demographic disparities is probably discriminatory or out-of-balance.
The issues with anima rejection and distorted relationships with the shadow (both of which are very common in modern western society, from what I have seen), are as clear as day to anyone who has read even a little Jung.
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People do have a way of putting up barriers
@AvshalomBinyamin said
"By the way, if the 'truth' of existence and human nature is exactly as some imagine it is, then I'm at a loss for how exactly a small group of wimpy, PC, guilt-ridden, liberals and humanists is forcing the lot of humanity to pretend to be something it is not... I think the simpler answer is that any large group that has persistent, across the board, demographic disparities is probably discriminatory or out-of-balance."
personally I think its more likely that the "truth" of it is that most humans are just as docile as those pc liberals I keep hearing about so long as they have a full trough and hay in the stable.
The Thelemic "dream" is just like the American dream, its a dream; an ideal; not something that will ever be widespread, simply because Human animals don't like change. -
Perhaps, since living your own life is a very daunting task if you're not used to the idea (I know I grew up stamping down my will for the sake of someone else's misguided idealism). But I am optimistic. If I can change, I think anyone can.
After all, if there is a better way of existing, it will become self-evident, and will be the inevitable course of humanity, in spite of setbacks. Most of these debates are just intellectual exercises anyway.
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Solitarius, 93,
You wrote:
"The Thelemic "dream" is just like the American dream, its a dream; an ideal; not something that will ever be widespread, simply because Human animals don't like change."
Since the 1950s in particular, huge amounts of American dream-style notions and capabilities have spread around the world. Simply, many, many people have more stuff.
Similarly, Thelemic ideas galore have been propagated - on sexual relationships, human rights (in the sense of such rights PERMITTING people to express their True Wills more freely, without harsh legal consequences), wider acceptance of the notion of pursuing mystical ideas, or the availability of ways, Eastern & Western, to pursue same. And so on. Maybe the animal side of humans doesn't change a lot, but the more interesting bits of human consciousness are in constant flux, and progressively more open to greater change. The fact that most commentators (blogers, journalists, pundits of all stripes) write mostly about what freaks them out, not what is improving, just establishes the existence of an enduring stratum of morose paranoia.
Give the Aeon what it needs - a century or two to re-shape human existence and consciousness.
93 93/93,
Edward
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93
Most of the freedoms we in the west enjoy are limited to the west, you wouldn't go to the middle east and talk about religious freedom unless you wanted to wind up in prison.
It may be true that Humanity is slowly waking up from its Aeon old sleep, I hope so, but the pessimist in me sees only dumb people being exploited by richer dumb people who are in no hurry to wake anybody up to the fact.
And what does more stuff give us? within limits, more tools to express ourselves is fine, but (myself included) the tendency is to become addicted to playing games or otherwise hypnotise ourselves with toys, fast cars, wide screen TV's, crap. they don't need to subdue the masses any more, we do it for them.For what its worth I don't think it really matters in the long run, so long as our little bit of consciousness of a planet survives long enough to learn to regulate itself rather than destroy itself through greed and the inability to control it's baser urges.
And if not, there are other worlds than this.93 93/93
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93,
Too much stuff can be a problem. Some stuff is good to have.
I've had some very interesting conversations in the Middle East about religious freedom. We kept our voices low, but people there are nowhere near as uptight about this topic as we keep being told. Most actually enjoy private debate.
Pessimism was the disease of the 20th Century. Thelema is the cure. Our problem is, we want it all to change now, or at least soon. But Thelema puts history in the context of aeons, not years. I don't think we give that notion much thought, especially if we're focused on the widescreen TV and such. I ditched my TV some years ago. It was a small move in the direction of not being so controlled. Now, if I can kick my addiction to online news.....
93 93/93,
Edward
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@Edward Mason said
"93,
Too much stuff can be a problem. Some stuff is good to have.
I've had some very interesting conversations in the Middle East about religious freedom. We kept our voices low, but people there are nowhere near as uptight about this topic as we keep being told. Most actually enjoy private debate.
Pessimism was the disease of the 20th Century. Thelema is the cure. Our problem is, we want it all to change now, or at least soon. But Thelema puts history in the context of aeons, not years. I don't think we give that notion much thought, especially if we're focused on the widescreen TV and such. I ditched my TV some years ago. It was a small move in the direction of not being so controlled. Now, if I can kick my addiction to online news.....
93 93/93,
Edward"93
I'll go with you on both those.
Having been in the middle east myself I found that people out there are pretty normal in general, there are still dick-heads, and people who will try to kill you for a few dollars, but there are also cool people.I can well remember when I was posted in Basrah, me and my Corporal spent a lot of time fishing in the shat-al-arab canal and we used to chat to a couple of Iraqi blokes who were working on site, because we were in civilian clothing and unarmed a lot of the time they didn't treat us like Soldiers, but like humans, and we used to chat with them about all sorts of things, really cool people, and they used to get fishing bait for us when they went out because we were more or less stuck on the base.
I know what you mean about pessimism, I'm prone to it myself, that's why I don't watch a lot of TV, A friend of mine comes from Hungary and he says he's much happier in England because he doesn't have a clue what's going on in the world as he doesn't watch the news or scan headlines as he would in his native language.
For myself I never had a TV as I hate the damned things, I rarely listen to radio either.93 93/93
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@Froclown said
"Quoth the humanist: It upsets me to see people fighting over race and gender, we must deny that race and gender exist, we are all the same. Please stop being mean, please stop slinging mud and insults, it does so upset poor little me, who is weak and frail and can not defend myself. Oh please stop being aggressive and competitive, it reminds me of my own frailty and unworthiness to live."
In a way, you are right: there is a type of human being whose frailty is exposed by any interaction with a stronger will. Yet, at the same time, there is a healthy portion of humanity ready to accept their True Wills as such, needing only a fitting example to inform them of their capacities.
"Love all, lest there be a King concealed." --not, "Hate all, until they prove themselves a King."
The "stamp down the wretched" attitude is something I cannot argue or disprove; nor would I try to. Yet, on the other hand, I am conscious of a certain kind of strength which needs no proof to substantiate its authority. The truly righteous man has no need to exert his authority over the weaker members of his species, as if to prove himself the master. Such is weakness.
Hence: "Argue not..."
As to the ideal man: such are the Gods and Goddesses of old. It is by the invocation of these that we attain to the Highest: the meeting of macro- and microcosm. What matters it if these ideals exist or do not exist? What need for argument and proof? The Higher type of Mankind Knows, Wills, Dares, and keeps Silent.
Liber AL is by no means a manifesto of tyranny. Even the act of cruelty should be refined by the true silence of strength.
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Okay, to get back to the Topic of this particular thread...
How many men trying to prove the superiority of their testosterone, who claim know the "truth" about the nature of both sexes have ever at any point acquired a "store of women" ? Let alone have a healthy relationship with one... Do something more than grudge the opposite sex because of your inability to attract any... Did you knock up the woman you are with to make sure she wouldn't go anywhere else or at least give her a good STD to be ashamed about? OR perhaps you got a virgin or something near to that, then watch every move she makes so she never knows anything more than your short grunting spasm that you call sex? Or do you spend your time at strip clubs or escort services? Has the porn habit been getting violent lately? DO you spend time justifying you naughty little habits and, in turn, project YOUR insecurities onto others?
Yes, I agree generalizations are useful, but make sure those generalizations are well founded... I mean geeze does no one realize that they were making Barbie dolls into the 90s that said things like, "Math is hard..." and only talked about shopping and boys? Have you ever watched a Disney film or any film where the Princess is only important when she is rescued by the Prince? Ever notice that advertisements for cleaning product are geared towards women? I don;t know of any particular genetic trait that makes women better at tidiness than men. Maybe your vision is so distorted because you are so sexually pathetic that you need to take out your "anger" on "moody" women. BTW maybe if we allowed women to be conditioned with role options other than house wife into society women would not portray such "moodiness."
I mean COME ON you pathetic losers who could not get sex without some sort of bribe and pay attention you sound like stupid a*oles vomiting out the SH you have been spoon fed. Maybe I should come along and take "your" women into my harem, at least they would get shagged the right way and would no longer be so "moody." And when you come to reclaim your now "frenzied" and "wild" women they will turn on you and rip you limb from limb in their mad hysteria because you have tried to force a veil of modesty and self-loathing upon their heads.
All the while I will be drunken and well sexed as usual, and then their will be more little versions of me in the future (smart and good looking with an excellent sense of humor).
72
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I have been reading all these silly statements and I have come to the conclusion they are made by 14-15 year old boys with raging hormones and horrible pimples. I would like you to tell your mother what you think about women so you can get a good slap on your head and no t.v. for a month.
Seems some teenagers have taken the patriarch period really seriously and even in 2010 cannot let go.
Without a female there is no future, the present you owe to a female so do you the past.
If we are made in the image of the Creator, do you truly believe the main force that keeps the human race alive is a "helper" and a nothing?
Maybe you need to re-look at what causes males to fear female power so much they must keep her down. -
@Froclown said
"It means for a woman that she ought to make sure that the right man stocks her up and that under his umbrella she can achieve her Feminine WILL, which is undoubtedly to use her "charms" to manipulate this man into providing her with base material comforts the sort of shallow pointless crap that women like. Shiny stones, fancy garments, new shoes etc. To shaw her off and breed from her a son, that is a continuation of his father's achievements, so than she can wallow in her material things and play her stupid little games of blackmail and envy with her sisters.
Men should store up women, because it is a sign that a man is powerful enough to waste his excess on lower planes, on base material nonsense, like females and the crass things they live for.
Also women can be useful for sex magick, I mean even the best quality ink pen needs something to smear itself on, if it expects to manifest visible signs.
Of course there are ritual formula that avoid contamination with the lower planes all together, if one is so inclined, Certain forms of Eucharist for example. Though some of these deal with the 2 of wands, a card that might give some men apprehension."
The Sufi in me wants all hearts to ache with love til they bleed, but knows that you can't know this until you can surrender yourself to it, and that means throwing yourself to chance every time we meet someone closely.
You've been unlucky in love. I'm guessing you're single, perhaps recently.
It hurts, yes. I'm getting the sense you'd rather be celibate than get hurt again.
You'll get over it. It wont hurt less with time, but the scars will fade. Age teaches wisdom, and the hurt helps us to love. You won't find what you thought was love again until you can be less angry.
You can't receive the kisses of Nuit until you can love her with all your heart.
Compassion is the vice of Kings; who else can afford such an expensive luxury?
Veil not your vices in virtuous words; Every man and every woman is a star.
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@Solitarius said
"I've not read him, I'll give it a look if I can remember the name.
I have to admit I really like the Muslim world view when you divorce it from Religious dogma, they have a very earthy take on things."Oh absolutely, it's the Sufis that truly are sublime IMO; I see it as simply a synonym - they are merely other words for the same thing. Hearing an eloquent dervish waxing poetic about the ocean of divine love is something else; substitute your favourite goddesses of love and the comparisons of hermetic Qabalah are obvious!
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""You are in love with me, I shall make you perplexed.
Do not build much, for I intend to have you in ruins.
If you build two hundred houses in a manner that the bees do,
I shall make you as homeless as a fly.
If you are the mount Qaf in stability.
I shall make you whirl like a millstone."--- Rumi"
A beloved older soror of the BOTA turned me on to Rumi. Beautiful, beautiful, beautiful...
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@JPF said
"From what I hear, Rumi had a rather extensive harem.
"Little is made of how Rumi lived his life, but he was wealthy, and had at least one son, so it's not beyond what would have been expected of him as a 13th Century scholar. I didn't know that.
A quote that I'm always reminded of is that Sufis are not in any way against owning things, but they are totally set against being owned by things.
@JPF said
"Or perhaps the good Froclown was providing a much needed counterpoint to this "flaccid" discussion."
The point is "Love" and it's representation on a mortal plane for many of us (I'm just saying most men are heterosexual), and how misogyny is supposed to represent some sort of counterpoint. Whether it be the actual case or not, that was the language of rejection and loss; someone who has suffered for the love of a women enough to forcibly objectify and categorise all women without thought. That's such an old Aeon concept, I think. It's so ardently angry, anti-Nuit, anti-Universe, I'm surprised that anyone could find it hard to see how anti-Self the attitude ultimately is.
Forget Will, until you find out what that is, some point in the future ("shall be"), **Love **is the Law, right here, right now.
"The Guesthouse
This being human is a guesthouse
Every morning a new arrival
A joy, a depression, a meanness
Some momentary awareness
Comes as an unexpected visitorWelcome and entertain them all!
Even if they're a crowd of sorrows
Who violently sweep your house
Empty of its furniture
Still treat each guest honorably
He may be cleaning you out
For some new delight!The dark thought, the shame, the malice
Meet them at the door laughing
And invite them in
Be grateful for whoever comes
Because each has been sent
As a guide from the beyond
~ Rumi (Translated by Coleman Barks)"Now tell me it's a good idea to hold on so tightly to hurt and anger!
