Hovering over LA
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Alrah: The vision wasn't an internal experience, although I processed it internally, (and don't think there is a big difference between internal and external you know what i mean?) the experience was "outside" of me. I know when I need to get jungian on an experience.
@Jim: I looked in my calendar and I overstated how long ago it occurred. It happened sometime between March and April of 2002. Alas I don't have anytime of exact date, only that it was a saturday. Your usage of the term majestic is exactly the aura they projected. Even though I was a xian at the time, this experience made me respect beings I would've typically classify as evil. It's funny because it brought to mind a few verses
" Jude 1:9 "But Michael the archangel, when he disputed with the devil and argued about the body of Moses, did not dare pronounce against him a railing judgment, but said, "The Lord rebuke you!"""
This verse reminded me that according to biblical references, these higher beings treated one another with a level of respect."Daniel 10:13
13"But the prince of the kingdom of Persia was withstanding me for twenty-one days; then behold, Michael, one of the chief princes, came to help me, for I had been left there with the kings of Persia."
I was reminded of this verse because these beings were referred to as Princes by my Angel.I agree that they sound of Beri'ah, but I'm self-trained and was looking for outside opinion.
Regarding the subconscious cues, i felt like the beings were showing themselves to me as best I could ascertain them, because as i mentioned, before that they were an incomprehensible multi-dimensional form. Thank You for your input regarding the attributes of Ayin. I will look in to this more.
I am still fascinated by the idea of these beings staking out fiefs and fighting over them. For what? How much influence do they have over the minds of the the population they look down upon? Does Thelema have a place for the archangel michael and his supposed war against the dragon mentioned in Revelation 12?
Funny, I realized they were over "LA"
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@Foolster said
"I looked in my calendar and I overstated how long ago it occurred. It happened sometime between March and April of 2002. Alas I don't have anytime of exact date, only that it was a saturday."
I checked both my memory and some online archives, and can't find anything of great significance in LA at that time. The job market was down (I'd been off work about a year and just landed a gig doing IT consulting for some charities in the homeless/hunger lobbying area, spending a lot of time in downtown LA).
But one thing does stand out about that time. It was six months after 9/11, and we were only recently in Afghanistan, and the build-up was continuing. I have to take this into consideration in any Mesopotamian speaking devils appearing on the scene. (I'm not sure how much to take it into consideration, but some.)
LA does have powerful spiritual forces governing it, and they come from many places. The city was both founded and incorporated with a Leo Sun, so solar powers are more than a vacation ad. We have powerful occult concentrations ranging from the Catholic cathedral and its prayer power, through vast Santeria involvement, a very significant Thelemic community, large Wiccan communities (including some rather militant ones); "home ground" of Temple of Thelema, BOTA, FLO, and SRF among others; and a heavy concentration of general metaphysicians. There are enormous and diverse protective powers here.
I'm not accustomed, though, to them looking like what you described or particularly having that Qabalistic theme. That doesn't invalidate your experience, it's just a fact for me to throw into the mix.
"I am still fascinated by the idea of these beings staking out fiefs and fighting over them. For what? How much influence do they have over the minds of the the population they look down upon?"
I must tread delicately here, but you deserve an answer: First, yes, there are positions such as this on the inner planes, or at least somewhat like this. Second, there is something I can't talk about in public writing that doesn't have much or anything to do with supernatural forces, but does have a lot to do with competing interests fighting over control of our destiny - and speaking a language very close to what you heard. I'm just telling you that there is something real and documented that has a lot in common with what you overheard (even down to the way they let you hover nearby and overhear - that's almost the exact modus operandi of the 'interests' I'm thinking about).
"Does Thelema have a place for the archangel michael and his supposed war against the dragon mentioned in Revelation 12?"
Michael is quite present in Qabalah in general, and therefore quite present in things Thelemic. He is archangel of Mercury and Hod, and angel of the Sun, as well as archangel of Fire. Much of his mythology overlaps with that of St. George, and his role especially as Fire archangel relates to the slayer the lower form of fire (dragon or serpent), etc.
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The physical description sounds like Yamantaka, but of course that makes no sense in the context at all. I do wonder if someone very well-versed in the Qabala like Jim were to see something like Yamantaka, Heruka, etc. what he would make of it; would it be Braitic, A'yin, Tav expressed through A'yin, etc. or would it come across as something obviously different that doesn't fit, I wonder. I ask because Yamantaka fits the above description, but he is a buddha and the terminator of death.
Here's a video with a lot of different images of Yamantaka (you can disregard the # of arms, since that varies): www.youtube.com/watch?v=PIkXgWoAdR
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yeah, experiences similar to this increased.
Here's one I had on 9/10/01, before the one above:
heruraha.net/viewtopic.php?f=37&t=1616&start=0&hilit=bnnhkdsh I am the OP on that thread but had to change my name because i forgot my password after years of not posting. It's funny because my brothers name equals 911 in gematria and he was born on 11/11, which lends some interesting symbolisms to the dream. Always wondered why he was with me in that dream. -
I've been researching the notion of planetary/geographic rulers lately, and came across an interesting blurb in the Encyclopedia Judaica (2007), under Angelology:
" Related to the deuteronomic idea that the Lord actually assigned the heavenly bodies and the idols to the Gentiles but chose Israel to worship him (Deut. 4:15–20; 29:25) is the remarkable pas- sage (Deuteronomy 32:8–9): “When the Most High gave na- tions their homes and set the divisions of men, He fixed the borders of peoples according to the numbers of the divine beings (ְּב ֵני ֵאל ; so a Qumran fragment, in agreement with the Septuagint). But the Lord’s own portion is His people, Jacob His own allotment.” The masoretic reading ְּב ֵני ִי ְ ׂש ָר ֵאל “the chil- dren of Israel” for the reading of the Qumran fragment and the Septuagint cited above is a conflation of the latter and of a variant ָׂשֵרי ֵאל , “the ministers of God.” This variant is not attested directly, but its existence may be deduced from the fact that it would account both for the masoretic reading in Deuteronomy 32:8 and for the use of ׂשר ַ , “minister” in Daniel 10:20 twice, 21; 12:1. For these passages are obviously nothing but a bold development of Deuteronomy 32:8–9. Their doc- trine is that the fates of nations are determined by combats among the celestial “ministers” to whom they have been as- signed and that (despite Deut. 32:9) Israel also has a “minister,” Michael, who is assisted by another angel, Gabriel. In Job, the divine beings appear before God as a body, perhaps to report on the performance of their tasks and to obtain fresh orders; one of them is the Satan, who carries out his functions under God’s directions (Job 1:6ff.; 2:1ff.). The angels seen by Jacob ascending and descending the ladder (Gen. 28:12) seem to be messengers going forth on their several errands and coming back to heaven to report."
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@Foolster said
"I've been researching the notion of planetary/geographic rulers lately, and came across an interesting blurb in the Encyclopedia Judaica (2007), under Angelology:
" Related to the deuteronomic idea that the Lord actually assigned the heavenly bodies and the idols to the Gentiles but chose Israel to worship him (Deut. 4:15–20; 29:25) is the remarkable pas- sage (Deuteronomy 32:8–9): “When the Most High gave na- tions their homes and set the divisions of men, He fixed the borders of peoples according to the numbers of the divine beings (ְּב ֵני ֵאל ; so a Qumran fragment, in agreement with the Septuagint). But the Lord’s own portion is His people, Jacob His own allotment.” The masoretic reading ְּב ֵני ִי ְ ׂש ָר ֵאל “the chil- dren of Israel” for the reading of the Qumran fragment and the Septuagint cited above is a conflation of the latter and of a variant ָׂשֵרי ֵאל , “the ministers of God.” This variant is not attested directly, but its existence may be deduced from the fact that it would account both for the masoretic reading in Deuteronomy 32:8 and for the use of ׂשר ַ , “minister” in Daniel 10:20 twice, 21; 12:1. For these passages are obviously nothing but a bold development of Deuteronomy 32:8–9. Their doc- trine is that the fates of nations are determined by combats among the celestial “ministers” to whom they have been as- signed and that (despite Deut. 32:9) Israel also has a “minister,” Michael, who is assisted by another angel, Gabriel. In Job, the divine beings appear before God as a body, perhaps to report on the performance of their tasks and to obtain fresh orders; one of them is the Satan, who carries out his functions under God’s directions (Job 1:6ff.; 2:1ff.). The angels seen by Jacob ascending and descending the ladder (Gen. 28:12) seem to be messengers going forth on their several errands and coming back to heaven to report."
"There is a lot that doesn't make sense about this notion. First, I have to wonder why a self-admitted jealous God who is determined that people should only worship Him would "assign the heavenly bodies and the idols to the Gentiles" only to wipe them off the face of the Earth for their false idol worship. Secondly, how would you reconcile this idea, which places Yahweh at the center of the Universe, with the idea of the Aeon of Isis and now the Aeon of Horus? A God who apparently only revealed himself some 3000 years ago to a guy named Moses has been ruling things all along like a wizard behind a curtain and now that His Aeon is up, he is still in charge, too? Anyway, if you believe that spirits in heaven control your fate to the extent suggested in the above quotation, then you don't have much free will, which runs pretty contradictory to the ideas expressed in the Bible.
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@Redd Fezz said
"There is a lot that doesn't make sense about this notion. First, I have to wonder why a self-admitted jealous God who is determined that people should only worship Him would "assign the heavenly bodies and the idols to the Gentiles" only to wipe them off the face of the Earth for their false idol worship. Secondly, how would you reconcile this idea, which places Yahweh at the center of the Universe, with the idea of the Aeon of Isis and now the Aeon of Horus? A God who apparently only revealed himself some 3000 years ago to a guy named Moses has been ruling things all along like a wizard behind a curtain and now that His Aeon is up, he is still in charge, too? Anyway, if you believe that spirits in heaven control your fate to the extent suggested in the above quotation, then you don't have much free will, which runs pretty contradictory to the ideas expressed in the Bible."
I think the story of Ialdaboath completes the picture to the idea of a "jealous" God. The Lion Serpent born of Sophia who created the material universe to show his greatness. It fits the qabalistic scheme quiet nicely too if you attribute the Demiurge to the path of Teth (see the thoth deck its right there really). Making the goal of the magician to lift up his/her's consciousness above the material reality. Perhaps that would also make a nice analogy for the Black Brother concept: the magician sees him/herself as the total reality seated in the clouds on a false throne stealing power from mother wisdom.
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@TheSilent1 said
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@Redd Fezz said
"There is a lot that doesn't make sense about this notion. First, I have to wonder why a self-admitted jealous God who is determined that people should only worship Him would "assign the heavenly bodies and the idols to the Gentiles" only to wipe them off the face of the Earth for their false idol worship. Secondly, how would you reconcile this idea, which places Yahweh at the center of the Universe, with the idea of the Aeon of Isis and now the Aeon of Horus? A God who apparently only revealed himself some 3000 years ago to a guy named Moses has been ruling things all along like a wizard behind a curtain and now that His Aeon is up, he is still in charge, too? Anyway, if you believe that spirits in heaven control your fate to the extent suggested in the above quotation, then you don't have much free will, which runs pretty contradictory to the ideas expressed in the Bible."I think the story of Ialdaboath completes the picture to the idea of a "jealous" God. The Lion Serpent born of Sophia who created the material universe to show his greatness. It fits the qabalistic scheme quiet nicely too if you attribute the Demiurge to the path of Teth (see the thoth deck its right there really). Making the goal of the magician to lift up his/her's consciousness above the material reality. Perhaps that would also make a nice analogy for the Black Brother concept: the magician sees him/herself as the total reality seated in the clouds on a false throne stealing power from mother wisdom."
That's interesting and somehwat sensible from a mythic sort of perspective, except that it still doesn't explain (to me) why Yahweh would "assign the heavenly bodies and the idols to the Gentiles" only to wipe them out due to their false idol worship...
But, anyway, if we do accept this mythology, it seems to be a literal interpretation to suggest that the original quote is actually how things really are. If I am interpreting correctly, your explanation equates Yahweh with the Lion Serpent / Demiurge who is actually responsible for our creation and who has placed this ruling hierarchy in the clouds whose battles are reflected here on earth in our world?
This idea of a deluded God figure has a parallel in eastern mythology when Maha-Brahma told Buddha, "I am Brahma, the Great Brahma, the Supreme One, the Mighty, the All-seeing, the Ruler, the Lord of all, the Maker, the Creator, the Chief of all appointing to each his place, the ANCIENT OF DAYS, the Father of all that is and will be." Buddha told him straight to his face that nope, he was just another unenlightened, deluded deva.
The difference is that while Maha-Brahma claimed to be the Creator, he wasn't really the Creator. What you have explained seems to suggest that Yahweh is deluded, but he really did create us all.
This reminds me of a theory I have, which is not only my own, as I'm sure I've read similar things elsewhere, but it seems that if you open yourself up to a belief system then you literally open yourself to it and everything associated with it. People looking for demons find them, people looking for angels find them, people looking for UFOs find them, people looking for Buddhas find them. An interesting fact I've discovered is that Jehovah's Witnesses have 3x higher incidence of mental illness than average with a large occurrence of schizophrenia. They are always talking about being attacked by demons and they mean LITERALLY. Flaming heads, furniture moving around, books flying off shelves, being pulled out of bed by their hair, etc.
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@Redd Fezz said
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This reminds me of a theory I have, which is not only my own, as I'm sure I've read similar things elsewhere, but it seems that if you open yourself up to a belief system then you literally open yourself to it and everything associated with it. People looking for demons find them, people looking for angels find them, people looking for UFOs find them, people looking for Buddhas find them. An interesting fact I've discovered is that Jehovah's Witnesses have 3x higher incidence of mental illness than average with a large occurrence of schizophrenia. They are always talking about being attacked by demons and they mean LITERALLY. Flaming heads, furniture moving around, books flying off shelves, being pulled out of bed by their hair, etc."I hold a similar idea about BS (belief systems). Universe mathematically speaking has no form, color, sound etc. Our minds produce the entire experience, therefore, the mind will experience reality according to the parameters it has been "set " to.
BTW yes I do equate old Jehovah to the Demiurge. What I left out is that Sophia told the Demiurge that the primordial soul of man preceded him. Old Ialdabaoth didn't like that one bit so he created the universe to enslave the primordial consciousness of humanity. All the demigods, angels, and demons therefore would exists to maintain the illusion. Don't forget that the Demiurge is INSANE, imagine an idiot spending all day to build a sand castle and when the sand people in the castle don't fall onto their sand knees to worship he destroys them.
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Fess. My reference was made out of interest. I'm a theologian/religion major so I study ancient texts for parallels
with modern models. The story itself finds it's origin in a Ugarit myth regarding El Elyon
and his 70 sons. The sons are assigned to govern various city states, (similar to the list of 70 nations in Genesis).I don't believe in Sophia or Iaoldoboth, the demiurgos or that ish. I just make records of my experiences and look for similarities in pre-existing belief systems, which are beyond my immediate awareness and confirm a sort of archetypal reality or trend. I try to read between the lines. From my experiences with entities I would hesitantly classify as "good and evil", I cant help but be reminded of the evolutionary game theory model, Hawk-Dove. We see this system of game theory in nature, where it is in the best interest of both parties to have opposing strategies for many reasons. Likewise I believe humanity has evolved in symbiosis w/ the presence of higher intelligences which have opposing visions of what humanities destiny ought to be. These entities are theophanies of an even higher intelligence which projects both, and humanity itself is but the material vehicle for this cascade of self-evolving and seemingly self-opposing awareness. The push and pull of both sides are the swings on the pendulum which bring us to higher equilibriums.
This is a game we must all partake in, "for if you are lukewarm I will spit you out."
The name of the game is The Great Work and after having snatched the fire(read elevated consciousness) from the gods, we must descend the mount again and deliver the fire like Prometheus, so it may serve as a boon to humankind, so that we may spiritualize the material with an influx of the captured fire.I sought to bring awareness to the governing forces, that is all. Earth is a battlefield and your consciousness is a vehicle in that war.
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@Foolster said
"Fess. My reference was made out of interest. I'm a theologian/religion major so I study ancient texts for parallels
with modern models. The story itself finds it's origin in a Ugarit myth regarding El Elyon
and his 70 sons. The sons are assigned to govern various city states, (similar to the list of 70 nations in Genesis).I don't believe in Sophia or Iaoldoboth, the demiurgos or that ish. I just make records of my experiences and look for similarities in pre-existing belief systems, which are beyond my immediate awareness and confirm a sort of archetypal reality or trend. I try to read between the lines. From my experiences with entities I would hesitantly classify as "good and evil", I cant help but be reminded of the evolutionary game theory model, Hawk-Dove. We see this system of game theory in nature, where it is in the best interest of both parties to have opposing strategies for many reasons. Likewise I believe humanity has evolved in symbiosis w/ the presence of higher intelligences which have opposing visions of what humanities destiny ought to be. These entities are theophanies of an even higher intelligence which projects both, and humanity itself is but the material vehicle for this cascade of self-evolving and seemingly self-opposing awareness. The push and pull of both sides are the swings on the pendulum which bring us to higher equilibriums.
This is a game we must all partake in, "for if you are lukewarm I will spit you out."
The name of the game is The Great Work and after having snatched the fire(read elevated consciousness) from the gods, we must descend the mount again and deliver the fire like Prometheus, so it may serve as a boon to humankind, so that we may spiritualize the material with an influx of the captured fire.I sought to bring awareness to the governing forces, that is all. Earth is a battlefield and your consciousness is a vehicle in that war."
OK well by your own explanation: you are yet to experience that level of conscious awareness. You should try to see that we are speaking about a "trend" that some may have experienced not the reality of a being named Ialdaboath, BTW as a religion major you should know that Sophia=Wisdom=Chokmah.
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@Foolster said
"I sought to bring awareness to the governing forces, that is all. Earth is a battlefield and your consciousness is a vehicle in that war."
That is why it matters to me what these beings supposedly are and what they're supposedly doing. I try to avoid those forces which would like to crush me like a bug and instead prefer to link up with the more powerful, benign forces who show superior intelligence and only the best of intentions, not to mention the ability to defeat all enemies and willingly act as guardians.
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Silent1: of course I have. I was speaking in general when I refuted a concretized demiurgos, not to you. For the record, I've met thelemites who take the symbols as literal. You'd do well to be more polite in correspondence.
Fezz: I'm with you.
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"Second, there is something I can't talk about in public writing that doesn't have much or anything to do with supernatural forces, but does have a lot to do with competing interests fighting over control of our destiny - and speaking a language very close to what you heard. I'm just telling you that there is something real and documented that has a lot in common with what you overheard (even down to the way they let you hover nearby and overhear - that's almost the exact modus operandi of the 'interests' I'm thinking about)."
Indeed.
For the sake of correlation, I'll cite a dream experience of mine somewhat similar to yours, Foolster:
I find myself on an isolated bridge, presumably in Los Angeles (where I was raised.) Suddenly a battle takes place: very vivid and bloody. On the one side were strange beings with white suits and helmets (a little like the Stormtroopers in the Star Wars movies) and on the other side were a faction of human beings. The beings in the white suits wore them because they were unaccustomed to the our World's atmosphere. After a really cool battle (I like my war dreams ), the beings in white took the field. I was fighting with the humans, so I retreated.
Next I took part in an involved war against the "aliens," which I won't recount.
Here's the interesting bit: eventually I was either captured or sent on a mission to a large black ship. On this ship I went through many halls and chambers and eventually came to a big room. In this room was a long conveyor belt, with naked human beings moving along the conveyor belt. Above the conveyor belt was a black throne and on this throne was a large, dark-purple alien with a very long neck, so that he could reach every part of the room. This alien (being, whatever) was potently evil and powerful, and I recognized it as some sort of ruler. As each human passed, the alien would put its face up to the human, after which the human was bound to the alien's will, like a carbon copy.
I was watching this from behind a small crate in the corner of the room. Suddenly, the alien noticed my presence, and swung his face directly in front of mine. The last image of the dream was of me looking directly into the eyes of the most evil being I've yet to witness.
I could cite two or three of these sorts of dreams. We won't get into the "alien trips" I've had when I used to do psychedelics. Those don't really count. (Or do they?) They did send me some really interesting messages through a piece of jade, however.
The point is this: beings exist on planes separate from ours--beings which may or may not have our best interests in mind. But that hardly matters. What matters is to discover our true Will, to become One with our Angels, and conquer the disparate elements of our own nature. Whatever powers are at work yet bow before the dominion of the Crowned and Conquering Child.
Edit: And the language wasn't Babylonian--or even human, for that matter. If I were you I'd refrain from repeating it very much.
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"But... hang on a minute. What makes you think human being own an entire plane to themselves? Isn't it a bit speciescentric to try and lay claim to it all in a universe as vast as the one we live in? lol."
Hey, don't make me send the Pleiadians after you! Don't move, and nobody gets probed!
Can't say I've dreamt of aliens in drag, before, but they certainly had cool guns. (And last time I checked the United States has a claim on 92% of existing reality, for which we traded the native population hard liquor and blankets infested with smallpox, so don't rock the boat.)
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@Redd Fezz said
"The physical description sounds like Yamantaka, but of course that makes no sense in the context at all. I do wonder if someone very well-versed in the Qabala like Jim were to see something like Yamantaka, Heruka, etc. what he would make of it; would it be Braitic, A'yin, Tav expressed through A'yin, etc. or would it come across as something obviously different that doesn't fit, I wonder. I ask because Yamantaka fits the above description, but he is a buddha and the terminator of death.
Here's a video with a lot of different images of Yamantaka (you can disregard the # of arms, since that varies): www.youtube.com/watch?v=PIkXgWoAdR"
Interestingly, nobody responded... but, not only did it sound like the physical description of Yamantaka, but the video I linked showed a few images of just one stellar body... Saturn.