Qliphoth Question
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The idea of the Qliphoth as remnants of old universies is just one of the many traditional ways of describing the qliphothic worlds.
However, by exploring it completely one will definately find a different reality or "future" for the initiation than if one would not.Ask yourself if you will reach enlightenment without experiencing all parts of yourself and reality.
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As I understand it:
The Qliphoth are merely the other side of the Qabalistic coin; as there could be no white without black, so there can be no Sephiroth without a corresponding balance.
Each Sephira represents a positive manifestation of Idea. For instance, the Fourth Sephira on the Tree of Life, Chesed, is called "Mercy." The Qliphoth corresponding to this is "Gamchicoth," or "Devourers." This concept or idea is the opposite of that implied by the term "Mercy."
"The Qliphoth are said to be 'shells', outdated 'excesses' of the Sephiroth that have lost their purpose and use in the current moment. But in the long run, if you were to add up all of the outdated, old stuff, wouldn't you get the new stuff? "
And no, no matter how many piles of sh-t one heaps together, they will not make a Mercedes-Benz. However, the Qliphoth are a necessary and relative correlative of the Sephiroth, so your reasoning is not altogether wrong.
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@JPF said
"Each Sephira represents a positive manifestation of Idea. For instance, the Fourth Sephira on the Tree of Life, Chesed, is called "Mercy." The Qliphoth corresponding to this is "Gamchicoth," or "Devourers." This concept or idea is the opposite of that implied by the term "Mercy.""
Sephirot are balanced manifestations of the Ideas, Qliphot are unbalanced ones ; they are not the opposite of Sephirot. working with them means that one has to acknowledge the existence of qliphotic 'forces' inside oneself, to understand and accept them as part of oneself and then to balance that principle (say Chesed, for example), i.e. to overcome it (so what is left are husks, shells) - to outgrow qliphotic manifestation of an Idea inside oneslef so that s/he could 'work with' sephirotic principle (as a dynamic balance of that Idea).
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"And no, no matter how many piles of sh-t one heaps together, they will not make a Mercedes-Benz."
Anybody remember SNL's "The Adobe" ? lol...
@danica said
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@JPF said
"Each Sephira represents a positive manifestation of Idea. For instance, the Fourth Sephira on the Tree of Life, Chesed, is called "Mercy." The Qliphoth corresponding to this is "Gamchicoth," or "Devourers." This concept or idea is the opposite of that implied by the term "Mercy.""Sephirot are balanced manifestations of the Ideas, Qliphot are unbalanced ones ; they are not the opposite of Sephirot. working with them means that one has to acknowledge the existence of qliphotic 'forces' inside oneself, to understand and accept them as part of oneself and then to balance that principle (say Chesed, for example), i.e. to overcome it (so what is left are husks, shells) - to outgrow qliphotic manifestation of an Idea inside oneslef so that s/he could 'work with' sephirotic principle (as a dynamic balance of that Idea)."
Here comes the hairsplitter again...
[Just to be clear, I was referring to me... lol]
Forgive me, but I thought I might be able to clarify the subtle difference between the very sound priniciples each of you are presenting.
"Each Sephira represents a positive manifestation of Idea."
In this meditation, each sephira is imagined as radiating.
"Sephirot are balanced manifestations of the Ideas, Qliphot are unbalanced ones ; they are not the opposite of Sephirot."
In this meditation, each sephira is imagined as a stable form.
Neither are always true, but this is the meditation of a stable framework for Reality. Radiation and ...anti-radiation...? are divided, classified, ordered, and coagulated together into a stable, meaningful meditation tool, which is the Glyph of the Tree of Life itself, but not the Tree of Life as it exists as an organism of Mind and Spirit.
Does that help in anybody's world but mine?
Just my two...
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here's an excerpt from Robert Ambelain's ''Practical Kabbalah'' which can add to the discourse..
".. because it is situated at the last rung of the TREE OF LIFE, MALKUTH is in osmotic contact with the TREE OF DEATH, the inverted Tree. Just as the Secondary Tree of MALKUTH is called ’’the Queen’’, the Bride’’, ’’the Virgin’’, and the SPOUSE of the Microprosopus, to this inverted Tree is given an analogous but contrary name: it is called QELIPHAH, The Prostitute.
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All that is corrupt in Life, contrary to the eternal designs of the ABSOLUTE and eternally rejected by Him, must be expelled, and this type of metaphysical ’’execration’’ takes place in the inverted Tree the TREE OF DEATH (as opposed to the TREE OF LIFE), beyond the SPOUSE, in the PROSTITUTE....For we cannot ignore that GOD, in Whom reside all ’’Possibilities’’ of good and ill as a result of His absolute Omniscience, operates for all ETERNITY an eternal discrimination between what He keeps, chooses, adopts and realizes by means of His ’’Emanations’’, and what He refuses, rejects and reproves.
That which He rejects constitute the Evil Powers, the sinister ’’KINGS OF EDOM’’ who existed before all that is now drawn from the Nothingness. These are the broken VESSELS of which the Zohar speaks.
In this fraction of MALKUTH which is in contact with the upper part of the QLIPPOTH (and which is its Malkuth, since the Kether of the QLIPPOTH is evidently situated far below..), cosmic refuse cannot be reborn in the planes of organized form before finding equilibrium, and the eternal purpose which has been asigned to them. Thus, in the world of the QLIPPOTH (plural of QLIPPAH), there is a sphere which is not ’’Hell’’, but rather ’’Purgatory’’. This is a reservoir of disorganized powers, resulting from forms that have been destroyed and rejected by evolution. "
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First of all, I am happy that you mention Mr. Amberlain. He is a little known person outside the esoteric milieu of Europe. Great guy. Many initiatory systems have much to thank him for.
@danica said
"Sephirot are balanced manifestations of the Ideas, Qliphot are unbalanced ones ; they are not the opposite of Sephirot. working with them means that one has to acknowledge the existence of qliphotic 'forces' inside oneself, to understand and accept them as part of oneself and then to balance that principle (say Chesed, for example), i.e. to overcome it (so what is left are husks, shells) - to outgrow qliphotic manifestation of an Idea inside oneslef so that s/he could 'work with' sephirotic principle (as a dynamic balance of that Idea)."
This is a good initiatory point and a close basic explanation why one would want to work with the Qliphothic forces from a Left Hand Path perspective.
However, I would not consider the sephiroth as ideas; Hod is related to ideas. Other sephiras are related to other things. -
"then if you were to add up all of the past moments, would that make the future? And in the entire scheme of things, wouldn't the 'past,' 'present' and 'future' be identical?
"In the entire scheme quantify the meaning and observe the "total" without said meaning], then, personally, I'd say yes. But I'd have to imagine the future as the inverted mirror-image of the past if you want to get that mathematical. 0=2 and all that.
"if the Qliphoth are just considered to be 'old' and 'husks' RELATIVE to the moment"
Yes, ultimately, meaning is relative to your moment (imho).
I wouldn't spend much time, however, equating your memory to doo-doo, though that is a legitimate correspondence in my mind, from a certain perspective * past meaning *is so lost as to be non-sensible and inarticulate to the present and therefore valueless].
When thinking in terms of time instead of matter, then the analogy becomes motion instead of stuff. In this mindframe, I think you have to view the past as the fletching of the arrow of your magician. Your arrow has to be able to fly straight and true within the existing currents of Mind. As such, it serves to stabilize your flight into the future. Salt.
However, the Magician's arrow can steer itself a little too...
Just a little though... ahem...Just my two...
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@mr tree said
"The Qliphoth are said to be 'shells', outdated 'excesses' of the Sephiroth that have lost their purpose and use in the current moment. But in the long run, if you were to add up all of the outdated, old stuff, wouldn't you get the new stuff? Or what I mean is, if the Qliphoth are just considered to be 'old' and 'husks' RELATIVE to the moment, then if you were to add up all of the past moments, would that make the future? And in the entire scheme of things, wouldn't the 'past,' 'present' and 'future' be identical?"
Thinking about the "eternal recurrance," perhaps?
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@Iaomai said
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"Sephirot are balanced manifestations of the Ideas, Qliphot are unbalanced ones ; they are not the opposite of Sephirot."
In this meditation, each sephira is imagined as a stable form.
Neither are always true, but this is the meditation of a stable framework for Reality. Radiation and ...anti-radiation...? are divided, classified, ordered, and coagulated together into a stable, meaningful meditation tool, which is the Glyph of the Tree of Life itself, but not the Tree of Life as it exists as an organism of Mind and Spirit.
Does that help in anybody's world but mine?
Just my two..."
Could the Qlippoth be said, then, to be the forces of the Sephiroth when they are not flowing between one another and are instead coagulating within a Sephirah?
In other words - all the Sephiroth flow down into Malkuth, where they all become (basically) concrete and material (in Assiah at least). If a particular force of a particular Sephirah stops flowing (and receiving, I guess?), perhaps that then becomes/defines Qlippothic?
I know this isn't what you were getting at, but this is the first thing I thought of when I read your post, Iaomai.
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You have me pondering the metaphor of a graphic equalizer, but ...that idea is still cooking. lol...
"Coagulation" - I don't know. Seems like a stoppage would result in the total termination of the current. That's what got me on the graphic equalizer...
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The Qliphoth can mean many different things. It could have its beginnings in for instance:
- Ain Soph (and thus be beyond a beginning, rather that which everything has its beginning in)
- Binah
- Din or Geburah
- Hod
- Malkuth
There are many Qabalistical ways of looking at the Qliphoth. Depending on the nature of the Qabalistical system, the view of the Qliphoth differs.
See for instance the book by Thomas Karlsson: "Qabalah, Qliphoth and Goetic Magic".