One's True Will (with a wife and kids)
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93,
First off, I'm probably a bigger Thelema newbie than you are, so much of what I have to say won't be as reliable as what the more professional people have to say here. But what I do know about Thelema is that "there is no sin but RESTRICTION" and "there is now Law beyond do what thou Wilt".
What this means for me is that if I'd really want to achieve something in my life, nothing should be allowed to stop that. Not even family. However, I also want to be a loving, caring person. That could be problematic. UNLESS one strifes to find a balance between those things. Then both things I want to achieve will be fulfilled.
But on the other hands, this sound more like something that you WANT (please accept my apologies if I'm wrong, I cannot read your Will), it is a desire, which is not quite the same thing as Will. I'm 100% convinced that once you've learnt about your True Will, there really aren't going to be that much doubts and you'll just GO for it.
Also: YOU HAVE TWINS. I am envious (and no, not jealous, as another thread explained
)93, 93/93
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@Pendragon said
"What I am getting at is this: Is the finding of one’s True Will always possible (or more so, possible to completely fulfill), if you’re tied to people that will always be connected to/ influence you in some way or another? I have already committed to my wife and children, and they aren’t obviously some job or habit that I can work to change or omit completely. I am sure some of you on this forum are in the same boat, so any advice? Sure, family can be supportive, encouraging, etc, but in the end (and what scares me the most), if one finds that part of their True Will was never to have married that person, or have those children to begin with, than are they treated the same way as anything else detrimental to the Great Work (i.e., discarded, modified, etc)? I love them to death and could not even imagine uprooting myself if that happened to be part of my True Will. I just honestly see it as selfish. I also don’t see it working any other way though, as I don’t imagine one’s True Will is “flexible” by any means. Or is it?"
Whew. Lots of questions!
I'm 33 and also a musician, so this post resonated with me. I've been engaged for a year, as well...so I feel I can understand where you're coming from...I also have a young son, too. I was married and divorced at an early age -- but with every step came a blessing.
My following opinions are just that, but they are based on a little experience and a bit of shared reality:
Well, all these questions that you have are a matter of discovering who you really are. It is interesting, but along the Path these things will work themselves out. If you decide to take the Oath of Probationer or follow any other mystical school, I think that the practices will be sufficient to leading you to an Understanding of your True Will. Family or no family may be a part of this, but only you will know.
The main thing is, is that you're questioning things that are very close to you emotionally, which, to me, shows great sincerity in your aspiration!
You are being confronted with fears of changing who you think you are. The True Will is not "flexible", but I guarantee your interior and exterior circumstances/attitudes are. I've found that I'm VERY flexible, and therein lies freedom and happiness...and I get more flexible every day.
As a result of my Path, I feel this way:
*Remember all ye that existence is pure joy; that all the sorrows are but as shadows; they pass & are done; but there is that which remains. *
Personally, I love my fiancee more than ever, and I know my life with her now is an aspect of my True Will. If I'm not with her later, that is also an aspect of my True Will. I also love myself and all other phenomena, more than ever.
Best wishes with the TWINS on the way! Exciting!
Also: Perdurabo!
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Nice post, Elmida
One correction though - the quote is "The word of Sin is Restriction." (Liber Legis I:42).I've asked myself questions like this before and haven't found an answer, but maybe I can help both of us get a better perspective on it.
One of the inherent ideas behind the concept of True Will is that no True Will will conflict with any other True Will - because there is only One Will that manifests itself in different people. You and your wife could not have conflicting Wills, though you may have conflicting personal desires. (That includes everything from what to get for dinner tonight, to whether or not to remain married.)
True Will is the true expression of what a person actually is. If something is indeed restricting that Will, then the appropriate response would be to discard or modify it (assuming your initial perception is accurate). To use your examples, this could mean either changing the nature of your relationship with your family (accepting that long absences may be required), or changing your relationship to music (accepting that touring may not be realistic or necessary), or possibly changing your conception of what your True Will is (i.e. it constitutes all areas of your life equally), or something totally different than these suggestions.
If your True Will pulls you away from a certain situation, the True Wills of those involved in that situation would also be pushing you away.
I'll use myself as an example. I'm struggling through a decision about how to interact with a girl I'm close with. If my True Will does indeed pull me away from her, I know that surely, deep inside, her True Will actually pulls her away from me as well. Fulfilling one's True Will is one's duty not just to oneself, but to everyone else as well. (See Crowley's essay "Duty" for his explanation of that.) I have a duty not just to myself but to her as well to do my Will. Properly enacting one's True Will would never cause actual harm to another person, i.e. restrict them from doing their True Will, although it may cause the full spectrum of ordinary emotions and reactions. (If engaging her is against my True Will, letting her go would be the best choice, but that doesn't mean it won't cause us emotional pain, just like an addict will suffer quite a lot in quitting his addiction even though it is the right choice.)
Don't take any of this as anything more than suggestions based on my own feeble understanding of the Law.
93, 93/93.
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@Pendragon said
"What I am getting at is this: Is the finding of one’s True Will always possible (or more so, possible to completely fulfill), if you’re tied to people that will always be connected to/ influence you in some way or another?"
That's the core question, isn't it! And you may not find the answer in a short answer, but it's a great question to open for broader discussion. (I'm moving this to the Thelema forum.)
The only honest and all-comprehensive answer, I think, is a vague one: That depends on what your True Will is, and what your circumstances are.
But we shouldn't envision True Will in a vaccum. We are Hadit within Nuit, singular souls within the context of wholeness of our universe. The context you select (feels authentic and vital to you in your life) is part of the whole picture of your True Will in its unfolding.
Also, the discovery of your True Will, and the doing of it are commonly two separate stages. If I were counseling you, I probably wouldn't suggest you "jump ship" on anything until you actually get more solid clarity on what you are all about. (You have a general idea, not a particular idea so far.) Of course, I'm not suggesting you "jump ship" at all, just indicating that the continuing self-discovery still ahead of you probably fits just fine in your current life.
Another way to put it: Don't worry about the consequences of choices you don't know yet whether you'll ever have to make. You may eventually want to tour - but that's a decision for then. You shouldn't let "what if my True Will leads me to do X" screw with you until you have a pretty good idea that it's what you will require of yourself.
You're striving for authenticity, bottom line.
And it also sounds like your wife should be deep in this conversation with you. It needn't be a scary one, but you might need help in finding the right way to talk about it. It sounds to me like you are currently in a state of worry about potential conflicts between being authentic to yourself (and fulfilling your authentic self) and your current, genuine commitment and choice to be with your wife and children.
You may be able to sort through this on your own.
Or you may benefit from individual (and, especially, family- or couple-level) counselling/therapy. The purpose would be to coalesce what conversation you want to hae and to create the abilities and context to have that conversation. (Don't use jargon with a therapist, of course. You don't have to mention "True Will" when you can talk in language that's real to you such as finishing uncovering who you are as a person, what creative drives you can unlock, how this can fit in the context of your genuine, deep commitment to your wife and children and wish to stay with them - that sort of thing).
You probably really just need life skills - problem-solving skills - It's totally possible to live a real, full life in the world and remain connected to people you love.
You may also want to enhance your skills in looking at this sort of thing, deepening your ability to connect with yourself and others, find the right conversation and have it, etc., by exploring the Landmark Forum, a program I can heartily recommend for psychologically healthy people wanting to build and expand on that.
"...but in the end (and what scares me the most), if one finds that part of their True Will was never to have married that person, or have those children to begin with, than are they treated the same way as anything else detrimental to the Great Work (i.e., discarded, modified, etc)?"
Don't confuse this with "fate" and "fucking up the master plan." You're right on target: You recognize that this is a fear - a fear about something that hasn't happened yet and probably won't happen but could happen. I guarantee that you won't have any idea how to handle it (no matter what anyone tells you) until you're faced with the reality of it. Then, you would be in a place to make choices.
Choices made for love are rarely mistakes. You're right that they might be temporary choices (or might not be).
"I love them to death and could not even imagine uprooting myself if that happened to be part of my True Will."
Then don't. That would be inauthentic to you, right?
"I just honestly see it as selfish."
Honestly? OK, that's a surprise, but I'm going to trust you on this one.
Oh, BTW do I detect something unstated there, like, "...and selfishness is bad"? If so, I would disagree with that. Selfishness is the basis of nearly all of our decisions. As we grow, though, our idea of "self" expands, to include larger and larger frameworks such as, oh, one's wife and kids.
"I also don’t see it working any other way though, as I don’t imagine one’s True Will is “flexible” by any means. Or is it?"
You might be stuck on the idea that your True Will is a particular, specific thing you have to do. That may be the form it takes. But you probably would do better in this soul-searching if you understand TW instead as a deep, fundamental motive (motivation) that is at the root of all of your choices, and that could unfold authentically in numerous specific ways.
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@Ash said
"I'll use myself as an example. I'm struggling through a decision about how to interact with a girl I'm close with. If my True Will does indeed pull me away from her, I know that surely, deep inside, her True Will actually pulls her away from me as well. Fulfilling one's True Will is one's duty not just to oneself, but to everyone else as well. (See Crowley's essay "Duty" for his explanation of that.) I have a duty not just to myself but to her as well to do my Will. Properly enacting one's True Will would never cause actual harm to another person, i.e. restrict them from doing their True Will, although it may cause the full spectrum of ordinary emotions and reactions. (If engaging her is against my True Will, letting her go would be the best choice, but that doesn't mean it won't cause us emotional pain, just like an addict will suffer quite a lot in quitting his addiction even though it is the right choice.)"
It seems that being able to be in "right relation" to outside perceptions and circumstances (i.e. being FLEXIBLE) is a great Key. It took me a long time to understand and feel that Change is Stability...
Everything changes...and it can be difficult dealing with change...but, sometimes, it's just the IDEA of change that bothers us (if we worry); the change itself is never really as bad as our projections. It can work the other way, too.
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@Jim Eshelman said
"Oh, BTW do I detect something unstated there, like, "...and selfishness is bad"? If so, I would disagree with that. Selfishness is the basis of nearly all of our decisions. As we grow, though, our idea of "self" expands, to include larger and larger frameworks such as, oh, one's wife and kids."
I love that. My experience reflects this as well. -
I've wasted so much time and energy battling the what if question. What if Thelema expects this of you? What if your True Will means that for you? Could you stand it if *this *happened to you? What would you do if that meant it was pointless?
Hypothetical after hypothetical...
On, and on, and on... ["Onan-onanism...!"
]I refuse the question - or... how do I say it...? I'm really harsh now with those particular questions when they arise in me personally. I'm not sure if that's good technique, but I'm sick of them recurring. They are vain and fruitless.
My questions for those questions are now: "Where do you want me to go?" "When do you want me to leave?" "What are my practical instructions?" "When should I tell my wife?" "How are you paying for it?"
For me, my "hypotheticals" always fall silent in the face of present reality and practical necessity.
Don't let your "hypotheticals" demand more "practical" from you than they give to you. They can be greedy that way.
My two anyway.
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@Jim Eshelman said
"
You might be stuck on the idea that your True Will is a particular, specific thing you have to do. That may be the form it takes. But you probably would do better in this soul-searching if you understand TW instead as a deep, fundamental motive (motivation) that is at the root of all of your choices, and that could unfold authentically in numerous specific ways."Thanks to the OP for asking some very good questions, and thanks to everyone for the responses.
This particular section really got to me. I'm trying to move from the one perspective you describe, to the other, of understanding a unified fundamental motivation. This is very challenging, but I think the way you said it really crystallizes this.
To the OP. In line with all of the above, there's this idea that at every moment, the "form" of our live bends and twists with each decision and event. There's this term I've heard from people who work with abused children: "redefining success". It's an acknowledgement that the current circumstances are what we have to start with, and that the goal is to make things better--not what we might imagine "perfect" to be.
There's a Kurt Vonnegut quote about a meaning of life: "We are here to help each other get through this thing, whatever it is." And I think that--subject to the way our own TW motivation works, of course--it's very much a part of many people's will especially at this crucial point in human history, to help each other.
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I may be way off here, but it seems like the notion of true will, as a job, as a way to earn a living, and discover ones calling.....is putting life off, and not seizing each moment.
My son is ten, he has a true will, and he does it as a ten year old can. My great neice is four and she does her true will, in her way each moment. They never stop to ask, is this what I want to do with my life, no, it's what they want each moment, and life is just moment to moment.
My most important relationship, is my relationship with GOD as I see it. IMHO no other relationship compares, regardless how fine. I have a personal integrity that demands I will act a certain way, because of this
In my backyard, I have an oak tree that must be two hundred years, if it's a day. One day, I came home to see my husband talking with a forester, to cut down this tree. I looked my husband in the eye and told him that if he was the type of person to cut down this type of tree, then I wanted a divorce. That's my true will, being in each moment. True to what I hold in my heart the closest.
If you are in accordance with your true will, then you are in accord with God, and their is no question. Think musically, if you are off, then the whole production is off key.
I know that God and the angels watch over my loved ones, better then I ever could. By taking care of me, they are taken care off too, I really truly know that.
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Since the advent of my interest in Thelema my family and extended relatives have disowned me, my vast retinue of friends has dimished to a small core group, and I've experienced a great many other upheavals. These "losses" were not primarily due to my acceptance of the Law of Thelema, but the dramatic alteration of my lifestyle at that point made these sacrifices necessary for the purposes of my Will.
Let us be clear: there is a difference between will and Will. Will is impersonal, closer to fate. The experience of discovering my True Will was a powerful and real experience, not some subjective hankering or even very strong desire. It comes as an unmistakable illumination, which one either experiences or does not. My experience only came after I gave everything up to follow the Law of Thelema. And when I mean everything, I mean every last possession and iota of belongings. Only after I had shown my willingness to sacrifice all was I given my Will, my instructions and direction in this life.
The path I took was not for everybody--but what I want to emphasize is this: the reward is so, so, so much greater than the sacrifice, which is nothing.
Be clear and honest with your wife and children. Love is the law, love under will.
From De Lege Libellum
"The great bond of all bonds is ignorance. How shall a man be free to act if he know not his own purpose? You must therefore first of all discover which star of all the stars you are, your relation to the other stars about you, and your relation to, and identity with, the Whole.
In our Holy Books are given sundry means of making this discovery, and each must make it for himself, attaining absolute conviction by direct experience, not merely reasoning and calculating what is probable. And to each will come the knowledge of his finite will, whereby one is a poet, one prophet, one worker in steel, another in jade. But also to each be the knowledge of his infinite Will, his destiny to perform the Great Work, the realization of his True Self. Of this Will let me therefore speak clearly unto all, since it pertaineth unto all. "
He goes on to describe the nature of one's True Will.
Also,
"For see, what hindereth you? It is either from without or from within, or both. It may be easy for the strong-minded seeker to put his heel upon public opinion, or to tear from his heart the objects which he loves, in a sense: but there will always remain in himself many discordant affections, as also the bond of habit, and these also must he conquer. "
"Search yourselves cunningly, I pray you, analysing your inmost thoughts. And first you shall discard all those gross obvious hindrances to your Will: idleness, foolish friendships, waste employments or enjoyments, I will not enumerate the conspirators against the welfare of your State. "
Thus the equation reads: Will > mundane concerns.
It may very well be that your Will is to leave your wife and child and enter into silent contemplation in the wilderness. Or it may be that your wife and children, astonished at the changes they see wrought in you through Magick, come to embrace such a path themselves. That is for you to Know. However, understand that the Powers that Be put many tests before us, and you must die many little deaths before you Understand.
The true obstacle is in fact your inner domain, which you must transform before you attend to the outer, which will follow.
I highly advise all beginning aspirants to read De Lege Libellum, which is perhaps the best introduction to the methods and means whereby one's Will is discovered.
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@Pendragon said
"I am a bit older (33 to be precise), am married, tied down to a job, and have one 2 year old with TWINS on the way. I am a musician, and know that deep down, music in one form or another must be connected to my True Will. My current job is in the musical field, but what I do (clerical/ logistical BS) could very well be done just as well if I worked for an elevator installation company.
What I am getting at is this: Is the finding of one’s True Will always possible (or more so, possible to completely fulfill), if you’re tied to people that will always be connected to/ influence you in some way or another? "
Not entirely theoretical, but one could choose to stick with a less than ideal family situation because it allows one the time to follow more creative pursuits, whereas, if one ditched the non-supportive (of joining thelemic orders) family, one would perhaps have to take up a mundane job in something less than appealing.
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Pendragon
From my own experience I would say that none of these questions would come up if something wasn't brewing beneath the surface.
Personally, when it came to the crunch, I left the idea of family life on the other side, although this was only because my wife to be was totally opposed to The Great Work; had it been otherwise I would have stayed put, no question.
Although I do not have children, I feel that if you have them then your first duty is to them, wall staring will have to wait until after babies bed time, or before they get up.
So if your wife is ok with you doing unusual things like sitting alone in a quiet place meditation, doing rituals, learning magick, reading interesting books, then why on earth would you consider leaving the good things in life, you do not have to live alone to be a Hermit, yet some of the loneliest people are married.
I also think that people have odd ideas of what it takes to attain, although a certain amount of solitude is necessary, we don't all need to sneak off to stare at a wall in china in order to attain, I find that any wall will do, so long as it's sufficiently blank
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Thank you to ALL who have posted replies to this thread. I am quite amazed by the responses you all have given, and I certainly have new ways of looking at/ approaching True Will going forth. I could quote a ton from what you all have written, but due to current time restrictions, I will do my best to summarize my overall thoughts.
Jim states, “You shouldn't let "what if my True Will leads me to do X" screw with you until you have a pretty good idea that it's what you will require of yourself”. This is totally on the money, and obviously, I can recognize that I still need to know what “I will require of MYSELF”, before I worry about much of anything else! What also really stuck with me was Jim’s other quote of “You might be stuck on the idea that your True Will is a particular, specific thing you have to do. That may be the form it takes. But you probably would do better in this soul-searching if you understand TW instead as a deep, fundamental motive (motivation) that is at the root of all of your choices, and that could unfold authentically in numerous specific ways.” Looking at TW from this perspective really helps to put the ‘what ifs” and hypothetical’s from my initial post, into a more realistic point of view.Solitarius writes “From my own experience I would say that none of these questions would come up if something wasn't brewing beneath the surface.” You are correct – something is brewing, but what, I am not 100% sure! Most likely, it’s probably the fact that I am at the point where I have an insatiable desire, a NEED, to change, to grow spiritually, but have this feeling that my current “settings” will not (or should I say, may not) allow that. OR perhaps more so, I am not sure how far I am willing (as of now), to allow my current settings to change, for the fear that it will directly affect my immediate family. These questions/ dilemmas will all be answered in time, I know, as I begin the Great Work. That said, I could not say today that these questions/ dilemmas stem from my marriage/ fatherly duties. My wife and I have a fantastic relationship; we are very open with one another about everything, and do what I think is a great job in raising our son. And, I love my son more than words can ever describe, PERIOD. My wife does know (to an extent) about my interest in The Great Work, but not as much as she should, if I plan on “going for it” (which I do). THAT is where I do agree, I need to speak to her genuinely about this, as she and my children will be directly affected by my aspirations to obtain the K&C of my HGA. Perhaps my FEAR of her reaction to all of this, is what also may have subconsciously triggered the original post! I do however feel she will actually be supportive even knowing the detailed aspects. Maybe another fear is, I know she will be supportive, at least initially, but until what point?
Dar states “No matter what else we may be doing, we will feel the call towards the protection and nurturing of our offspring and that's an absolute primal drive within us. There's is no question about that. Yet there is a drive to personally evolve that sometimes is in competition to this other drive.” This NAILS it – this is me, right now. Time will tell. If/ when I discover my true will, I know that come “crunch time”, the decisions I have to make at that point will be without doubt, and automatic. Hopefully though, as Solitarius states, I won’t “have to leave the good things in life, to live alone and be like a hermit”.
Thanks again to everyone for the posts.
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wow... great thread!
from my experience, honestly, i agree with dar. i've been married twice. my first relationship ended pretty quickly, child in hand. we're still friends and are co-parents and housemates. it's great actually because i know my place as a woman and it ain't what the classical institution has offered. my second marriage ended 6 months ago. this is the tricky one because he came into it knowing my interest in thelema. he had/has one too so it seemed ideal until one of us was willing to take it to the next level. it was ok at first, but when you make arrangements with your HGA and those who are there to assist and guide, it became very clear that my time couldn't really be split into raising a pre-teen, doing my work, being a college student (and really fostering my will and to be the change in the world i said i would) and catering to marital needs (which to me meant you do your will i do mine together) that were not anything i've experienced. i come from "broken" (non-nuclear) families, but as i move along i realize that from my culture, these ideals were newly introduced and my families have had a hard time being "married". however, i do know a few dynamic couples that work and play together and are interdependent, which i think is a key. all the thelemic couples i know are right on, super magical people. i have no regrets in any case, some really valuable experience that have only strengthened my Will. to be honest, it was after listening to vere chappell talk about ida craddock and marriage that gave me the courage to see clearly (no implications, this is just a personal take).
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@fool said
"True Will=Love=Beauty
Abandoning innocent, tender children or a wife for some phantasm = ugly.
Forget all the philosophy and hair splitting."
Sounds like gentle western ethics to me, not Thelema. True will is not so simple as that above answer.
There is no grace, I would not direct you with guilt, there is only one law, Do what thou Wilt.
Or to put it another way, here's one man's interpretation of Love & Beauty in his life: http://blog.bulkbeefjerky.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/07/1310815811-36.jpg
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@Mephis said
"Do you have many of these kinds of pictures, Takamba? I can put you in touch with a counseling hotline if you feel you need help.
I'll pray for you.
"I did not ask for your prayers. That's a stock photo I found. One's Will may indeed to be a soldier, one's Will may indeed to be a nurse, one's Will is not to be judged by your standards or the standards of the one who calls himself/herself her "fool." If one discovers their Will, it is no ugly phantasm. The man so pictured is someone who may in fact be doing his Will, who are you to judge?
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@Aegis said
"For me, my "hypotheticals" always fall silent in the face of present reality and practical necessity."
+1.