One's True Will (with a wife and kids)
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@Pendragon said
"I am a bit older (33 to be precise), am married, tied down to a job, and have one 2 year old with TWINS on the way. I am a musician, and know that deep down, music in one form or another must be connected to my True Will. My current job is in the musical field, but what I do (clerical/ logistical BS) could very well be done just as well if I worked for an elevator installation company.
What I am getting at is this: Is the finding of one’s True Will always possible (or more so, possible to completely fulfill), if you’re tied to people that will always be connected to/ influence you in some way or another? "
Not entirely theoretical, but one could choose to stick with a less than ideal family situation because it allows one the time to follow more creative pursuits, whereas, if one ditched the non-supportive (of joining thelemic orders) family, one would perhaps have to take up a mundane job in something less than appealing.
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Pendragon
From my own experience I would say that none of these questions would come up if something wasn't brewing beneath the surface.
Personally, when it came to the crunch, I left the idea of family life on the other side, although this was only because my wife to be was totally opposed to The Great Work; had it been otherwise I would have stayed put, no question.
Although I do not have children, I feel that if you have them then your first duty is to them, wall staring will have to wait until after babies bed time, or before they get up.
So if your wife is ok with you doing unusual things like sitting alone in a quiet place meditation, doing rituals, learning magick, reading interesting books, then why on earth would you consider leaving the good things in life, you do not have to live alone to be a Hermit, yet some of the loneliest people are married.
I also think that people have odd ideas of what it takes to attain, although a certain amount of solitude is necessary, we don't all need to sneak off to stare at a wall in china in order to attain, I find that any wall will do, so long as it's sufficiently blank
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Thank you to ALL who have posted replies to this thread. I am quite amazed by the responses you all have given, and I certainly have new ways of looking at/ approaching True Will going forth. I could quote a ton from what you all have written, but due to current time restrictions, I will do my best to summarize my overall thoughts.
Jim states, “You shouldn't let "what if my True Will leads me to do X" screw with you until you have a pretty good idea that it's what you will require of yourself”. This is totally on the money, and obviously, I can recognize that I still need to know what “I will require of MYSELF”, before I worry about much of anything else! What also really stuck with me was Jim’s other quote of “You might be stuck on the idea that your True Will is a particular, specific thing you have to do. That may be the form it takes. But you probably would do better in this soul-searching if you understand TW instead as a deep, fundamental motive (motivation) that is at the root of all of your choices, and that could unfold authentically in numerous specific ways.” Looking at TW from this perspective really helps to put the ‘what ifs” and hypothetical’s from my initial post, into a more realistic point of view.Solitarius writes “From my own experience I would say that none of these questions would come up if something wasn't brewing beneath the surface.” You are correct – something is brewing, but what, I am not 100% sure! Most likely, it’s probably the fact that I am at the point where I have an insatiable desire, a NEED, to change, to grow spiritually, but have this feeling that my current “settings” will not (or should I say, may not) allow that. OR perhaps more so, I am not sure how far I am willing (as of now), to allow my current settings to change, for the fear that it will directly affect my immediate family. These questions/ dilemmas will all be answered in time, I know, as I begin the Great Work. That said, I could not say today that these questions/ dilemmas stem from my marriage/ fatherly duties. My wife and I have a fantastic relationship; we are very open with one another about everything, and do what I think is a great job in raising our son. And, I love my son more than words can ever describe, PERIOD. My wife does know (to an extent) about my interest in The Great Work, but not as much as she should, if I plan on “going for it” (which I do). THAT is where I do agree, I need to speak to her genuinely about this, as she and my children will be directly affected by my aspirations to obtain the K&C of my HGA. Perhaps my FEAR of her reaction to all of this, is what also may have subconsciously triggered the original post! I do however feel she will actually be supportive even knowing the detailed aspects. Maybe another fear is, I know she will be supportive, at least initially, but until what point?
Dar states “No matter what else we may be doing, we will feel the call towards the protection and nurturing of our offspring and that's an absolute primal drive within us. There's is no question about that. Yet there is a drive to personally evolve that sometimes is in competition to this other drive.” This NAILS it – this is me, right now. Time will tell. If/ when I discover my true will, I know that come “crunch time”, the decisions I have to make at that point will be without doubt, and automatic. Hopefully though, as Solitarius states, I won’t “have to leave the good things in life, to live alone and be like a hermit”.
Thanks again to everyone for the posts.
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wow... great thread!
from my experience, honestly, i agree with dar. i've been married twice. my first relationship ended pretty quickly, child in hand. we're still friends and are co-parents and housemates. it's great actually because i know my place as a woman and it ain't what the classical institution has offered. my second marriage ended 6 months ago. this is the tricky one because he came into it knowing my interest in thelema. he had/has one too so it seemed ideal until one of us was willing to take it to the next level. it was ok at first, but when you make arrangements with your HGA and those who are there to assist and guide, it became very clear that my time couldn't really be split into raising a pre-teen, doing my work, being a college student (and really fostering my will and to be the change in the world i said i would) and catering to marital needs (which to me meant you do your will i do mine together) that were not anything i've experienced. i come from "broken" (non-nuclear) families, but as i move along i realize that from my culture, these ideals were newly introduced and my families have had a hard time being "married". however, i do know a few dynamic couples that work and play together and are interdependent, which i think is a key. all the thelemic couples i know are right on, super magical people. i have no regrets in any case, some really valuable experience that have only strengthened my Will. to be honest, it was after listening to vere chappell talk about ida craddock and marriage that gave me the courage to see clearly (no implications, this is just a personal take).
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@fool said
"True Will=Love=Beauty
Abandoning innocent, tender children or a wife for some phantasm = ugly.
Forget all the philosophy and hair splitting."
Sounds like gentle western ethics to me, not Thelema. True will is not so simple as that above answer.
There is no grace, I would not direct you with guilt, there is only one law, Do what thou Wilt.
Or to put it another way, here's one man's interpretation of Love & Beauty in his life: http://blog.bulkbeefjerky.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/07/1310815811-36.jpg
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@Mephis said
"Do you have many of these kinds of pictures, Takamba? I can put you in touch with a counseling hotline if you feel you need help.
I'll pray for you.
"I did not ask for your prayers. That's a stock photo I found. One's Will may indeed to be a soldier, one's Will may indeed to be a nurse, one's Will is not to be judged by your standards or the standards of the one who calls himself/herself her "fool." If one discovers their Will, it is no ugly phantasm. The man so pictured is someone who may in fact be doing his Will, who are you to judge?
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@Aegis said
"For me, my "hypotheticals" always fall silent in the face of present reality and practical necessity."
+1.
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"Aegis wrote:
For me, my "hypotheticals" always fall silent in the face of present reality and practical necessity."ha! that's my fb status tonight (by chance!):
"let's be practical and realistic shall we?"
my motto for sun in virgo! though yours sums it up better (i was talking to myself in that status and stated so...
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@Takamba said
"I did not ask for your prayers. That's a stock photo I found. One's Will may indeed to be a soldier, one's Will may indeed to be a nurse, one's Will is not to be judged by your standards or the standards of the one who calls himself/herself her "fool." If one discovers their Will, it is no ugly phantasm. The man so pictured is someone who may in fact be doing his Will, who are you to judge?"
Testy, are we Takamba?
Edit: You know, some might see denial as a symptom of guilt, but I'm just going to leave it at that.
Do I really need to start putting "Mercury 18 deg. Gemini" in my sig.?
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Calm down, friends. Be
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@Jim Eshelman said
"Calm down, friends. Be
"It's just me, I know this already, and it has nothing to do with magick, occultism, or ToT. But I have to say, when I read the above I couldn't stop myself fromhumming 'stay cool boy,' from the sound track of West Side Story!
Love and Will
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@Mephis said
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@Takamba said
"I did not ask for your prayers. That's a stock photo I found. One's Will may indeed to be a soldier, one's Will may indeed to be a nurse, one's Will is not to be judged by your standards or the standards of the one who calls himself/herself her "fool." If one discovers their Will, it is no ugly phantasm. The man so pictured is someone who may in fact be doing his Will, who are you to judge?"Testy, are we Takamba?
Edit: You know, some might see denial as a symptom of guilt, but I'm just going to leave it at that.
Do I really need to start putting "Mercury 18 deg. Gemini" in my sig.?"
I knew it was a joke, as I believe almost all things on the internet are a joke (including what both CNN and Fox put on the internet) but I cannot allow to stand any belief that claims a thing "ugly phantasm." The old Beauty is in the eye of the beholder thing. And I try often to behold the eye in the still center of the Universe, that eye which sees all and judges all equally. There is no ugly, ugly is as ugly sees. That sort of thing. I of course knew it was a joke and of course am not at all taking it personal (Takamba is a joke no one has discussed yet and need not, it isn't worth serious discussion).
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@Takamba said
" And I try often to behold the eye in the still center of the Universe, that eye which sees all and judges all equally"
You and me both.
Brought this to mind...I'd like to share it with you. It never gets old:
200
Ζϙ
DE CAECITIA PHILOSOPHORUM ANTIQUORUM
Behold, how comfortable is this my Wisdom, wherein I have resolved every Conflict soever that is or that can be, even in all Dimensions, that Antagonism of Things no less than their Limitations. I have said: Evil, be thou my Good; for it is the Magical Mirror of our Astarté, and the Caduceus of our Hermes. Now this was the Error of Elder Philosophers, that perceiving Changeful Duality as the Cause of Sorrow, they sought the Reconcilement in Unity and in Stability. But I shew thee the Universe as the Body of Our Lady Nuit, who is None and Two, with Hadit Her Lord as the Alternator of those Phases. This Universe is then a perpetual By-coming, the Vessel of every Permutation of infinity, wherein every Phenomenon is a Sacrament, Change being the act of Love, and Duality the Condition prodromal to that Act even as an Axe must be taken back from a Cedar that it may deliver its Stroke. The Error therefore of thee Philosophers lay in their false Assumption that Bliss, Knowledge and Being (the Qualities of their Changeless Unity) could be States. O my Son, how pitiful is their Beggary, these Paupers of Sense and of Experience and of Observation! The Emptiness of their Bellies was it that bred Phantoms of Ideal, so that they sought Joy by a crude Denial of what Truth (or rather, Fact) they had perceived concerning the Universe, so that they set up an Idol of Death for their God, in very Rage of Hatred against the Sum of their own Selves.
-- Liber Aleph vel CXI
Yeah, everything is a joke. But it's what we Do with the Joke!
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This is an older post, but when I was dealing with the question of "What if my True Will meant I must leave my wife and daughter", which ultimately is just the typical fear/resistance that manifests when to trying to do anything at all, and which has to be mastered anyway, this bit from one of Crowley's diaries (Tunisia '23) helped me out, so I thought I'd share:
"There seems to be much misunderstanding about the True Will. In argument people are always making assumptions which imply as uncaused will. The fact of a person being a gentleman is as much an ineluctable factor as any possible spiritual experience: in fact, it is possible, even probable, that a man may be misled by the enthusiasm of an illumination, and if he should find apparent conflict between his spiritual duty and his duty to honour, it is almost sure evidence that a trap is being laid for him and he should unhesitatingly stick to the course which ordinary decency indicates. [...] and I wish to say definitely, once and for all, that people who do not understand and accept this position have utterly failed to grasp the fundamental principles of the Law of Thelema [...]"
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Wow, what a great quote!
I haven't read that diary in 30+ years. Thanks for digging it out.