One's True Will (with a wife and kids)
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@Ash said
"I'll use myself as an example. I'm struggling through a decision about how to interact with a girl I'm close with. If my True Will does indeed pull me away from her, I know that surely, deep inside, her True Will actually pulls her away from me as well. Fulfilling one's True Will is one's duty not just to oneself, but to everyone else as well. (See Crowley's essay "Duty" for his explanation of that.) I have a duty not just to myself but to her as well to do my Will. Properly enacting one's True Will would never cause actual harm to another person, i.e. restrict them from doing their True Will, although it may cause the full spectrum of ordinary emotions and reactions. (If engaging her is against my True Will, letting her go would be the best choice, but that doesn't mean it won't cause us emotional pain, just like an addict will suffer quite a lot in quitting his addiction even though it is the right choice.)"
It seems that being able to be in "right relation" to outside perceptions and circumstances (i.e. being FLEXIBLE) is a great Key. It took me a long time to understand and feel that Change is Stability...
Everything changes...and it can be difficult dealing with change...but, sometimes, it's just the IDEA of change that bothers us (if we worry); the change itself is never really as bad as our projections. It can work the other way, too.
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@Jim Eshelman said
"Oh, BTW do I detect something unstated there, like, "...and selfishness is bad"? If so, I would disagree with that. Selfishness is the basis of nearly all of our decisions. As we grow, though, our idea of "self" expands, to include larger and larger frameworks such as, oh, one's wife and kids."
I love that. My experience reflects this as well. -
I've wasted so much time and energy battling the what if question. What if Thelema expects this of you? What if your True Will means that for you? Could you stand it if *this *happened to you? What would you do if that meant it was pointless?
Hypothetical after hypothetical...
On, and on, and on... ["Onan-onanism...!"
]I refuse the question - or... how do I say it...? I'm really harsh now with those particular questions when they arise in me personally. I'm not sure if that's good technique, but I'm sick of them recurring. They are vain and fruitless.
My questions for those questions are now: "Where do you want me to go?" "When do you want me to leave?" "What are my practical instructions?" "When should I tell my wife?" "How are you paying for it?"
For me, my "hypotheticals" always fall silent in the face of present reality and practical necessity.
Don't let your "hypotheticals" demand more "practical" from you than they give to you. They can be greedy that way.
My two anyway.
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@Jim Eshelman said
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You might be stuck on the idea that your True Will is a particular, specific thing you have to do. That may be the form it takes. But you probably would do better in this soul-searching if you understand TW instead as a deep, fundamental motive (motivation) that is at the root of all of your choices, and that could unfold authentically in numerous specific ways."Thanks to the OP for asking some very good questions, and thanks to everyone for the responses.
This particular section really got to me. I'm trying to move from the one perspective you describe, to the other, of understanding a unified fundamental motivation. This is very challenging, but I think the way you said it really crystallizes this.
To the OP. In line with all of the above, there's this idea that at every moment, the "form" of our live bends and twists with each decision and event. There's this term I've heard from people who work with abused children: "redefining success". It's an acknowledgement that the current circumstances are what we have to start with, and that the goal is to make things better--not what we might imagine "perfect" to be.
There's a Kurt Vonnegut quote about a meaning of life: "We are here to help each other get through this thing, whatever it is." And I think that--subject to the way our own TW motivation works, of course--it's very much a part of many people's will especially at this crucial point in human history, to help each other.
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I may be way off here, but it seems like the notion of true will, as a job, as a way to earn a living, and discover ones calling.....is putting life off, and not seizing each moment.
My son is ten, he has a true will, and he does it as a ten year old can. My great neice is four and she does her true will, in her way each moment. They never stop to ask, is this what I want to do with my life, no, it's what they want each moment, and life is just moment to moment.
My most important relationship, is my relationship with GOD as I see it. IMHO no other relationship compares, regardless how fine. I have a personal integrity that demands I will act a certain way, because of this
In my backyard, I have an oak tree that must be two hundred years, if it's a day. One day, I came home to see my husband talking with a forester, to cut down this tree. I looked my husband in the eye and told him that if he was the type of person to cut down this type of tree, then I wanted a divorce. That's my true will, being in each moment. True to what I hold in my heart the closest.
If you are in accordance with your true will, then you are in accord with God, and their is no question. Think musically, if you are off, then the whole production is off key.
I know that God and the angels watch over my loved ones, better then I ever could. By taking care of me, they are taken care off too, I really truly know that.
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Since the advent of my interest in Thelema my family and extended relatives have disowned me, my vast retinue of friends has dimished to a small core group, and I've experienced a great many other upheavals. These "losses" were not primarily due to my acceptance of the Law of Thelema, but the dramatic alteration of my lifestyle at that point made these sacrifices necessary for the purposes of my Will.
Let us be clear: there is a difference between will and Will. Will is impersonal, closer to fate. The experience of discovering my True Will was a powerful and real experience, not some subjective hankering or even very strong desire. It comes as an unmistakable illumination, which one either experiences or does not. My experience only came after I gave everything up to follow the Law of Thelema. And when I mean everything, I mean every last possession and iota of belongings. Only after I had shown my willingness to sacrifice all was I given my Will, my instructions and direction in this life.
The path I took was not for everybody--but what I want to emphasize is this: the reward is so, so, so much greater than the sacrifice, which is nothing.
Be clear and honest with your wife and children. Love is the law, love under will.
From De Lege Libellum
"The great bond of all bonds is ignorance. How shall a man be free to act if he know not his own purpose? You must therefore first of all discover which star of all the stars you are, your relation to the other stars about you, and your relation to, and identity with, the Whole.
In our Holy Books are given sundry means of making this discovery, and each must make it for himself, attaining absolute conviction by direct experience, not merely reasoning and calculating what is probable. And to each will come the knowledge of his finite will, whereby one is a poet, one prophet, one worker in steel, another in jade. But also to each be the knowledge of his infinite Will, his destiny to perform the Great Work, the realization of his True Self. Of this Will let me therefore speak clearly unto all, since it pertaineth unto all. "
He goes on to describe the nature of one's True Will.
Also,
"For see, what hindereth you? It is either from without or from within, or both. It may be easy for the strong-minded seeker to put his heel upon public opinion, or to tear from his heart the objects which he loves, in a sense: but there will always remain in himself many discordant affections, as also the bond of habit, and these also must he conquer. "
"Search yourselves cunningly, I pray you, analysing your inmost thoughts. And first you shall discard all those gross obvious hindrances to your Will: idleness, foolish friendships, waste employments or enjoyments, I will not enumerate the conspirators against the welfare of your State. "
Thus the equation reads: Will > mundane concerns.
It may very well be that your Will is to leave your wife and child and enter into silent contemplation in the wilderness. Or it may be that your wife and children, astonished at the changes they see wrought in you through Magick, come to embrace such a path themselves. That is for you to Know. However, understand that the Powers that Be put many tests before us, and you must die many little deaths before you Understand.
The true obstacle is in fact your inner domain, which you must transform before you attend to the outer, which will follow.
I highly advise all beginning aspirants to read De Lege Libellum, which is perhaps the best introduction to the methods and means whereby one's Will is discovered.
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@Pendragon said
"I am a bit older (33 to be precise), am married, tied down to a job, and have one 2 year old with TWINS on the way. I am a musician, and know that deep down, music in one form or another must be connected to my True Will. My current job is in the musical field, but what I do (clerical/ logistical BS) could very well be done just as well if I worked for an elevator installation company.
What I am getting at is this: Is the finding of one’s True Will always possible (or more so, possible to completely fulfill), if you’re tied to people that will always be connected to/ influence you in some way or another? "
Not entirely theoretical, but one could choose to stick with a less than ideal family situation because it allows one the time to follow more creative pursuits, whereas, if one ditched the non-supportive (of joining thelemic orders) family, one would perhaps have to take up a mundane job in something less than appealing.
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Pendragon
From my own experience I would say that none of these questions would come up if something wasn't brewing beneath the surface.
Personally, when it came to the crunch, I left the idea of family life on the other side, although this was only because my wife to be was totally opposed to The Great Work; had it been otherwise I would have stayed put, no question.
Although I do not have children, I feel that if you have them then your first duty is to them, wall staring will have to wait until after babies bed time, or before they get up.
So if your wife is ok with you doing unusual things like sitting alone in a quiet place meditation, doing rituals, learning magick, reading interesting books, then why on earth would you consider leaving the good things in life, you do not have to live alone to be a Hermit, yet some of the loneliest people are married.
I also think that people have odd ideas of what it takes to attain, although a certain amount of solitude is necessary, we don't all need to sneak off to stare at a wall in china in order to attain, I find that any wall will do, so long as it's sufficiently blank
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Thank you to ALL who have posted replies to this thread. I am quite amazed by the responses you all have given, and I certainly have new ways of looking at/ approaching True Will going forth. I could quote a ton from what you all have written, but due to current time restrictions, I will do my best to summarize my overall thoughts.
Jim states, “You shouldn't let "what if my True Will leads me to do X" screw with you until you have a pretty good idea that it's what you will require of yourself”. This is totally on the money, and obviously, I can recognize that I still need to know what “I will require of MYSELF”, before I worry about much of anything else! What also really stuck with me was Jim’s other quote of “You might be stuck on the idea that your True Will is a particular, specific thing you have to do. That may be the form it takes. But you probably would do better in this soul-searching if you understand TW instead as a deep, fundamental motive (motivation) that is at the root of all of your choices, and that could unfold authentically in numerous specific ways.” Looking at TW from this perspective really helps to put the ‘what ifs” and hypothetical’s from my initial post, into a more realistic point of view.Solitarius writes “From my own experience I would say that none of these questions would come up if something wasn't brewing beneath the surface.” You are correct – something is brewing, but what, I am not 100% sure! Most likely, it’s probably the fact that I am at the point where I have an insatiable desire, a NEED, to change, to grow spiritually, but have this feeling that my current “settings” will not (or should I say, may not) allow that. OR perhaps more so, I am not sure how far I am willing (as of now), to allow my current settings to change, for the fear that it will directly affect my immediate family. These questions/ dilemmas will all be answered in time, I know, as I begin the Great Work. That said, I could not say today that these questions/ dilemmas stem from my marriage/ fatherly duties. My wife and I have a fantastic relationship; we are very open with one another about everything, and do what I think is a great job in raising our son. And, I love my son more than words can ever describe, PERIOD. My wife does know (to an extent) about my interest in The Great Work, but not as much as she should, if I plan on “going for it” (which I do). THAT is where I do agree, I need to speak to her genuinely about this, as she and my children will be directly affected by my aspirations to obtain the K&C of my HGA. Perhaps my FEAR of her reaction to all of this, is what also may have subconsciously triggered the original post! I do however feel she will actually be supportive even knowing the detailed aspects. Maybe another fear is, I know she will be supportive, at least initially, but until what point?
Dar states “No matter what else we may be doing, we will feel the call towards the protection and nurturing of our offspring and that's an absolute primal drive within us. There's is no question about that. Yet there is a drive to personally evolve that sometimes is in competition to this other drive.” This NAILS it – this is me, right now. Time will tell. If/ when I discover my true will, I know that come “crunch time”, the decisions I have to make at that point will be without doubt, and automatic. Hopefully though, as Solitarius states, I won’t “have to leave the good things in life, to live alone and be like a hermit”.
Thanks again to everyone for the posts.
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wow... great thread!
from my experience, honestly, i agree with dar. i've been married twice. my first relationship ended pretty quickly, child in hand. we're still friends and are co-parents and housemates. it's great actually because i know my place as a woman and it ain't what the classical institution has offered. my second marriage ended 6 months ago. this is the tricky one because he came into it knowing my interest in thelema. he had/has one too so it seemed ideal until one of us was willing to take it to the next level. it was ok at first, but when you make arrangements with your HGA and those who are there to assist and guide, it became very clear that my time couldn't really be split into raising a pre-teen, doing my work, being a college student (and really fostering my will and to be the change in the world i said i would) and catering to marital needs (which to me meant you do your will i do mine together) that were not anything i've experienced. i come from "broken" (non-nuclear) families, but as i move along i realize that from my culture, these ideals were newly introduced and my families have had a hard time being "married". however, i do know a few dynamic couples that work and play together and are interdependent, which i think is a key. all the thelemic couples i know are right on, super magical people. i have no regrets in any case, some really valuable experience that have only strengthened my Will. to be honest, it was after listening to vere chappell talk about ida craddock and marriage that gave me the courage to see clearly (no implications, this is just a personal take).
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@fool said
"True Will=Love=Beauty
Abandoning innocent, tender children or a wife for some phantasm = ugly.
Forget all the philosophy and hair splitting."
Sounds like gentle western ethics to me, not Thelema. True will is not so simple as that above answer.
There is no grace, I would not direct you with guilt, there is only one law, Do what thou Wilt.
Or to put it another way, here's one man's interpretation of Love & Beauty in his life: http://blog.bulkbeefjerky.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/07/1310815811-36.jpg
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@Mephis said
"Do you have many of these kinds of pictures, Takamba? I can put you in touch with a counseling hotline if you feel you need help.
I'll pray for you.
"I did not ask for your prayers. That's a stock photo I found. One's Will may indeed to be a soldier, one's Will may indeed to be a nurse, one's Will is not to be judged by your standards or the standards of the one who calls himself/herself her "fool." If one discovers their Will, it is no ugly phantasm. The man so pictured is someone who may in fact be doing his Will, who are you to judge?
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@Aegis said
"For me, my "hypotheticals" always fall silent in the face of present reality and practical necessity."
+1.
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"Aegis wrote:
For me, my "hypotheticals" always fall silent in the face of present reality and practical necessity."ha! that's my fb status tonight (by chance!):
"let's be practical and realistic shall we?"
my motto for sun in virgo! though yours sums it up better (i was talking to myself in that status and stated so...
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@Takamba said
"I did not ask for your prayers. That's a stock photo I found. One's Will may indeed to be a soldier, one's Will may indeed to be a nurse, one's Will is not to be judged by your standards or the standards of the one who calls himself/herself her "fool." If one discovers their Will, it is no ugly phantasm. The man so pictured is someone who may in fact be doing his Will, who are you to judge?"
Testy, are we Takamba?
Edit: You know, some might see denial as a symptom of guilt, but I'm just going to leave it at that.
Do I really need to start putting "Mercury 18 deg. Gemini" in my sig.?
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Calm down, friends. Be
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@Jim Eshelman said
"Calm down, friends. Be
"It's just me, I know this already, and it has nothing to do with magick, occultism, or ToT. But I have to say, when I read the above I couldn't stop myself fromhumming 'stay cool boy,' from the sound track of West Side Story!
Love and Will