What is meant by "magick" ?
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On your remarks concerning theurgy vs. thaumaturgy:
I don't know that this is an accurate distinction. It's a good idea to try to find distinctive words, and these do sometimes have the meaning you mention in popular parlance, but I don't think it's right.
Theurgy means God-working, or that you are working with God-energy (Divine force rather than, say, rearranging emotional and material forces on their own plane). However, that includes phenomenological magick, as long as the power employed is of divine origin.
Thaumaturgy means miracle-working or wonder-working ("miracle" means something that is "wondrous," so these are the same thing). Notice that most miracle-working (possibly all that isn't just a song and dance crowd pleaser) is inherently theurgic. In fact, the oldest use of the word I can find is for Christian saints, who certainly would generally have conceived that the source of the miracle was God.
As an example, all ten sample rituals in 776 1/2 are theurgical. Most of them are also thaumaturgical.
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Thank you Jim,
Maybe I don't understand the terms. And perhaps the categories are not so distinct. But it seems to me that a ritual to become closer to the Divine is very different from casting a money spell. So I don't know what the terms are. It seems magick covers both activities, but that there should be some distinction.
93 93/93
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@AliceNui said
"Maybe I don't understand the terms. And perhaps the categories are not so distinct. But it seems to me that a ritual to become closer to the Divine is very different from casting a money spell. So I don't know what the terms are. It seems magick covers both activities, but that there should be some distinction."
Theurgy isn't necessarily one with the goal of being closer to the divine. It's one that harnesses divine energies to some purpose (which could be to be closer to the divine). For example, it's theurgy to invoke Elohim Tzabaoth to help you study for an pass a school exam, or Shaddai El Chai to increase help you get pregnant, or El to have more bounty.
The money spell (sample #4) in 776 1/2 calls on divine power.
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@AliceNui said
"Thank you Jim,
Maybe I don't understand the terms. And perhaps the categories are not so distinct. But it seems to me that a ritual to become closer to the Divine is very different from casting a money spell. So I don't know what the terms are. It seems magick covers both activities, but that there should be some distinction.
93 93/93"
Rituals are not of themselves spells.
Spells do not necessarily involve rituals.Yet, a ritual that's brings you closer to Divine, is actually very smiliar to a spell cast for money.
For me, magic or magick is the mystery behind action.
Sometimes I listen to the Divine,
Sometimes the divine listens to meAnd magick is when we sing, the same song, in harmony, and accordance.
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I like Hyatt's "brain-change willed" as well as "the science and art of causing change to occur in conformity with will".
Although, it seems yoga can be covered under these quotes as well.
I like using the model relating to body-mind's intrinsic nature to grow exponentially toward a desired end...possibly "willed evolution" like Lamarck and Bergson talked about. I think everyone can agree that it is more than just individual "brain-change", as is sometimes implied. Especially, if we view the "progess" collectively.
However, all we can perceive is done through the brain, so...I guess individually it could be considered a solipsist's definition?
It gets interesting if we view Crowley's words in a collective light...
EDIT: I did want to add that, for me personally, I usually consider magick to be a larger blanket that encompasses all of "brain-change willed". The above thread seems to focus on ceremonial magic and its techniques.
Usually (for me) ceremonial magic always involves a certain degree of "energized enthusiasm" or "gnosis" (as Carroll might say). That is, a psychophysiological reaction (to use one model) that interfaces the subject-object idea in an atypical way...for me, it includes tangible euphoric feelings and some even more "observable" phenomena.
The desired "result" really is a matter of perspective -- money, good grades, divine power, etc. -- and can cause interference...
"For pure will, unassuaged of purpose, delivered from the lust of result, is every way perfect."
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@Frater 639 said
"I like Hyatt's "brain-change willed" as well as "the science and art of causing change to occur in conformity with will".
Although, it seems yoga can be covered under these quotes as well.
I like using the model relating to body-mind's intrinsic nature to grow exponentially toward a desired end...possibly "willed evolution" like Lamarck and Bergson talked about. I think everyone can agree that it is more than just individual "brain-change", as is sometimes implied. Especially, if we view the "progess" collectively.
However, all we can perceive is done through the brain, so...I guess individually it could be considered a solipsist's definition?
It gets interesting if we view Crowley's words in a collective light...
EDIT: I did want to add that, for me personally, I usually consider magick to be a larger blanket that encompasses all of "brain-change willed". The above thread seems to focus on ceremonial magic and its techniques.
Usually (for me) ceremonial magic always involves a certain degree of "energized enthusiasm" or "gnosis" (as Carroll might say). That is, a psychophysiological reaction (to use one model) that interfaces the subject-object idea in an atypical way...for me, it includes tangible euphoric feelings and some even more "observable" phenomena.
The desired "result" really is a matter of perspective -- money, good grades, divine power, etc. -- and can cause interference...
"For pure will, unassuaged of purpose, delivered from the lust of result, is every way perfect.""
The way I consider it; When magick is successful, the will and result are one and the same.
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@Takamba said
"The way I consider it; When magick is successful, the will and result are one and the same."
93 Takamba!
Agreed. Success is thy proof!
Will and result can be considered the same thing outside of the typical, relativistic time/duration perception models (quantum physics and some more "magical" models seem to jive with this).
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@Frater 639 said
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@Takamba said
"The way I consider it; When magick is successful, the will and result are one and the same."93 Takamba!
Agreed. Success is thy proof!
Will and result can be considered the same thing outside of the typical, relativistic time/duration perception models (quantum physics and some more "magical" models seem to jive with this).
"Yes. I think you got what I meant. The continuum.
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@Takamba said
"Yes. I think you got what I meant. The continuum."
Yes.
The intellectual difficulties that surround these ideas remind me of this:
CHINESE MUSIC
"Explain this happening!" "It must have a `natural' cause." \ "It must have a `supernatural' cause." / Let these two asses be set to grind corn. May, might, must, should, probably, may be, we may safely assume, ought, it is hardly question- able, almost certainly-poor hacks! let them be turned out to grass! Proof is only possible in mathematics, and mathe- matics is only a matter of arbitrary conventions. And yet doubt is a good servant but a bad master; a perfect mistress, but a nagging wife. "White is white" is the lash of the overseer: "white is black" is the watchword of the slave. The Master takes no heed. The Chinese cannot help thinking that the octave has 5 notes. The more necessary anything appears to my mind, the more certain it is that I only assert a limitation. I slept with Faith, and found a corpse in my arms on awaking; I drank and danced all night with Doubt, and found her a virgin in the morning. -
@Frater 639 said
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@Takamba said
"Yes. I think you got what I meant. The continuum."Yes.
The intellectual difficulties that surround these ideas remind me of this:
CHINESE MUSIC
"Explain this happening!" "It must have a `natural' cause." \ "It must have a `supernatural' cause." / Let these two asses be set to grind corn. May, might, must, should, probably, may be, we may safely assume, ought, it is hardly question- able, almost certainly-poor hacks! let them be turned out to grass! Proof is only possible in mathematics, and mathe- matics is only a matter of arbitrary conventions. And yet doubt is a good servant but a bad master; a perfect mistress, but a nagging wife. "White is white" is the lash of the overseer: "white is black" is the watchword of the slave. The Master takes no heed. The Chinese cannot help thinking that the octave has 5 notes. The more necessary anything appears to my mind, the more certain it is that I only assert a limitation. I slept with Faith, and found a corpse in my arms on awaking; I drank and danced all night with Doubt, and found her a virgin in the morning."On of my favorites! Now if we could only get Jay-Z to flow it.
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@Takamba said
"On of my favorites! Now if we could only get Jay-Z to flow it. "
Hahaha!!! Stop it!
You tempted me: the intiated version of Run This Town by Jay-Z (excerpt)
Commentary by 639It's crazy how you can go from being Joe Blow
To everybody on your dick, no homoThis is the idea the Solar-Phallic archetype. No doubt Hadit inspired.
I bought my whole family whips, no Volvos
Clear indication of Atu VII, see later comment concerning RAV4s...
Next time I'm in church, please no photos
This deals with the difficulties of suppressing images while performing Liber XVI practices.
Police escorts
Everybody passportsDark night of the soul, guarded by Anubis, and finally passed through.
This the life that everybody ask for
This a fast life
We are on a crash courseConcerning the Aspirant and the HGA.
What you think I rap for
To push a fucking Rav 4?Another pointer to Atu VII, specifically the rubric and Words of Power in ceremony.
But I know that if I stay stun-ting
All these girls only gonna want one thingThe three forms of Venus - The Crone, Mother, and Virgin.
Or, even Babalon in another sense.
*
I could spend my whole life good will hunting
Only good gon' come is as good when I'm cumming*IX degree of the O.T.O. reference.
She got a ass that'll swallow up a g-string
G refers to Gimel and the High Preistess...
Hahaha!!!
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High Magic is aspirational. Its practical goals are personal evolution and phenomenology from drawing on transfer-humanmanes.
Low magician draws on energies on the same plane, just rearranging the priorities. It's robbing Peter to payaul.
Low magick is about change. High magick is about transformation.
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@Jim Eshelman said
"Low magick is about change. High magick is about transformation."
Like
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@Jim Eshelman said
"High Magic is aspirational. Its practical goals are personal evolution and phenomenology from drawing on transfer-humanmanes.
Low magician draws on energies on the same plane, just rearranging the priorities. It's robbing Peter to payaul.
Low magick is about change. High magick is about transformation."
So, would that mean that casting spells for things such as money and love would be low magick?
Or would that depend on the energies used? -
Most such spells are low magick because they call on forces that rearrange resources in the same plane.
Btw, "low" isn't a pejorative here, anymore than "low temperature" is.
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Too much to answer here on a portable device. The main point, though, is that the two are unrelated. Low magick has no more relationship to black magick than lo mein noodles have in common with black cherries.
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I totally agree that real world solutions should be brought to real world problems - first! But sometimes our resources seem insufficient for a solution. That's the place for magick.
I'm not sure exactly what kind of causation answer you want. I'm tempted to answer: "Uh, it's magick" You aren’t going to find either a rational explanation or concrete causation chain; or, if you do, it breaks the spell. But the basic theory is that you are aligning your consciousness with the Atziluthic level of the particular frequency corresponding to the intended result. That is, you are making yourself a willing channel for that particular divine expression that already wills your result.
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@Dara said
"Jim - coming back to yesterdays question (unless you're still using a portable device?) - how would you distinguish between low and black magick?"
Actually, that's the part that I thought I answered really thoroughly: There is no more relationship between low magick and black magick than there is between lo mein noodles and black cherries.
Take it back to their base definitions: Their definitions are so independent of each other than they form a 2 x 2 grid of Low vs. High Magick and Black vs. (I guess) Unblack Magick (LOL, let's call it Rainbow Magick - I don't want to get stuck in a White vs. Black vs. gradiants nomenclature for discussion). It's not the partially overlap of a Venn diagram. It's a 2 x 2 grid just as much as, say, Warm vs. Cold foods plotted against Japanese vs. Argentinian cuisine.
The distinction of High vs. Low Magick is the distinction of transformation vs. change: That is, of relying on Something from outside the framework in which the targetted phenomena exist vs. rearranging the pieces within a given framework. The distinction of Black Magick is that it is violative of another's True Will. You can have High Black Magick, Low Black Magick, High Rainbow Magick, and Low Rainbow Magick.