Question on Neophyte Robe

Jason R

@Archaeus said

"93

Just to clarify; a Neophyte robe won't have ant hood insignia, this will be added once you get to 2=9.

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Archaeus,

93

Thank you. Yes I was assuming there was the insignia on hood. Ok, so simply a plain black hooded Tau robe.

P.s. Jim out of curiosity what is symbolism of the 5" sides to triangle?

Thank you very much for the clarification!

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Archaeus

@Daegal said

"
@Archaeus said
"93

Just to clarify; a Neophyte robe won't have ant hood insignia, this will be added once you get to 2=9.

93 93/93"

Archaeus,

93

Thank you. Yes I was assuming there was the insignia on hood. Ok, so simply a plain black hooded Tau robe.

P.s. Jim out of curiosity what is symbolism of the 5" sides to triangle?

Thank you very much for the clarification!

93 93/93"

Yep, plain black with a hood.

Zelator robe has an eye in a triangle, Practicus has the full hexagram in silver with 48 rays encompassing the Zelator triangle. Philosophus robe has all of this, and a six squared eight colored cross on the breast.

As far as I can tell these are the earliest robe insignia out there, although I am aware that other Branches of A.'.A.'. do things differently; some use a black Tau robe for Probationer for instance,sometimes with the full G.'.D.'.insignia. and some use the robes from Liber Vesta with all the multi-colored sleeves and stuff.

I personally find the older robes to be more elegant, more symbolic, and probably easier to make than some of the other designs.

Liber VII: 5:42 should give you some insight into the red triangle: There is the Heart of Blood, a pyramid reaching its apex down beyond the Wrong of the Beginning.
Interesting subject, can be a bit tricky.

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Jim Eshelman

@Archaeus said

"I can imagine that it slipped in because the lineage that produced Liber Vesta has a very close relationship with OTO. Things that they come up with do tend to become Thelemic canon, especially as a lot of people in OTO don't even realize that there are other lineages that do things differently."

On the contrary, although I disparage the modern Liber Vesta, I have no reason to doubt the sincerity of its publishers. These very likely were the original designs from c. 1909. OTOH i have no reason to doubt Regardie's representation that the list he let me copy was what Crowley gave him to type up as A.'.A.'. robe designs. The reasonable conclusion is that he changed his mind along the way. (Thankfully, because the earlier designs were utterly ghastly from 2=9 through Dom Lim.)

Jim Eshelman

@Daegal said

"Jim out of curiosity what is symbolism of the 5" sides to triangle? "

I've often thought it was intended to be 6" on either side - a 6 6 6 triangle - but I mostly didn't care enough to pursue historically.

Archaeus

93

Ref: deleted post: I wasn't aware that was a secret? Otherwise I would not have posted it.
In fact I saw it even before I joined OTO.

Even so, please accept my apologies.

I didn't know that the Liber Vesta robes were earlier, I thought they were the invention of a particular branch of AA?

But I agree, they are utterly ghastly. The designs that Regardie typed up are much more elegant.

Jim Eshelman

@Archaeus said

"Ref: deleted post: I wasn't aware that was a secret? Otherwise I would not have posted it.
In fact I saw it even before I joined OTO."

Things have been published without permission of the owners. I don't take this as "public." Also, yes, you can often see these in public. At least at the time that I was Deputy Grand Master General, it was the view of the Caliph that these matters were confidential, so I'm electing to respect that position. (It's an official position of this forum, from its inception, not to expose things proprietary and confidential to other living orders. Even the fact that something is widespread general knowledge doesn't conflict with it being "secret" in a technical sense - e.g., I would not publish here the Word of the Third Degree of Freemasonry.)

"I didn't know that the Liber Vesta robes were earlier, I thought they were the invention of a particular branch of AA?"

I take at face value the editor's statement in the book, to the effect that this is a new liber based on a document from Crowley of the era.

Archaeus

@Jim Eshelman said

"
@Archaeus said
"Ref: deleted post: I wasn't aware that was a secret? Otherwise I would not have posted it.
In fact I saw it even before I joined OTO."

Things have been published without permission of the owners. I don't take this as "public." Also, yes, you can often see these in public. At least at the time that I was Deputy Grand Master General, it was the view of the Caliph that these matters were confidential, so I'm electing to respect that position. (It's an official position of this forum, from its inception, not to expose things proprietary and confidential to other living orders. Even the fact that something is widespread general knowledge doesn't conflict with it being "secret" in a technical sense - e.g., I would not publish here the Word of the Third Degree of Freemasonry.)

"I didn't know that the Liber Vesta robes were earlier, I thought they were the invention of a particular branch of AA?"

I take at face value the editor's statement in the book, to the effect that this is a new liber based on a document from Crowley of the era."

That's a good point, I'll keep it in mind, it just seemed like the kind of thing that wouldn't be a problem.

With regards to Liber Vesta, I see that it was issued by V, V.V. and S.U.A., as far as I know, these are the same three responsible for the part I-IV of Magick (Which is actually a damn fine book).
So; which document were they based on?

Jim Eshelman

Probably just a typed or hand-written sheet of paper with the descriptions jotted. (I'm guessing. That would have been typical of AC.) From this, modern people created an official document for their lineage, with pictures, fleshed out language, etc.

Jason R

@Jim Eshelman said

"
@Daegal said
"Jim out of curiosity what is symbolism of the 5" sides to triangle? "

I've often thought it was intended to be 6" on either side - a 6 6 6 triangle - but I mostly didn't care enough to pursue historically."

93

Hmmm thanks Jim. I would certainly see the 6". The 5" sent me into a whole series of ideas lol! mostly being 5" for each triangle, red fire triangle hinted at through color alone, and water 5" (3 sides each) so 5 & 6 theme, Rosy Cross etc. Also maybe 6 × 5 = 30 "L" etc. Idk but interesting.

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Jason R

Archeaus,

93

Sorry if my question unwittingly got you in little trouble! I highly appreciate your help and knowledge. Thank you!

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Jason R

93

P.S. I know realized there are certain things one has to keep privy. I had asked about this specifically, and i must have misunderstood because i thought the answer was there were no formal oaths of secrecy? So to clarify we can NOT speak of certain things? Im little confused.

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Jim Eshelman

@Daegal said

"P.S. I know realized there are certain things one has to keep privy. I had asked about this specifically, and i must have misunderstood because i thought the answer was there were no formal oaths of secrecy? So to clarify we can NOT speak of certain things? Im little confused."

A.'.A.'. has no formal oaths of secrecy below the Grade of 10=1 (though some things are best treated with discretion).

The remarks in question did not concern A.'.A.'..

Jason R

@Jim Eshelman said

"
@Daegal said
"P.S. I know realized there are certain things one has to keep privy. I had asked about this specifically, and i must have misunderstood because i thought the answer was there were no formal oaths of secrecy? So to clarify we can NOT speak of certain things? Im little confused."

A.'.A.'. has no formal oaths of secrecy below the Grade of 10=1 (though some things are best treated with discretion).

The remarks in question did not concern A.'.A.'.."

Oh! I see. Ok thank you. Makes sense now.

Jason R

93

Sorry gentlemen one more question. Im almost done with having my probationer robe done. However i had just basic design for red pentagram on front and usual hexagram with gold Tau in center on back, gokd trim about hems. However now learning about particular measurements of triangles etc., (not using now however) I want to know for probationers robe insignia are there certain measurements? Inches for hexagram and pentagram? Sorry, thank you again!

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Jim Eshelman

@Daegal said

"Sorry gentlemen one more question. Im almost done with having my probationer robe done. However i had just basic design for red pentagram on front and usual hexagram with gold Tau in center on back, gokd trim about hems. However now learning about particular measurements of triangles etc., (not using now however) I want to know for probationers robe insignia are there certain measurements? Inches for hexagram and pentagram? Sorry, thank you again!"

No measurements written, to my knowledge. Go by the pictures.

Jason R

Perfect, thanks again. I appreciate it!

93

Archaeus

Have fun with that 0=0 robe. It took me about a week of stitching like a man possessed, (Which is probably not far from the truth).

After that I never wanted to see another reel of gold thread for as long as I live, and getting the ribbon not to crinkle is no end of fun.

Still, the result was well worth the effort.

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Jason R

@Archaeus said

"Have fun with that 0=0 robe. It took me about a week of stitching like a man possessed, (Which is probably not far from the truth).

After that I never wanted to see another reel of gold thread for as long as I live, and getting the ribbon not to crinkle is no end of fun.

Still, the result was well worth the effort.

93 93/93"

93

Lol yes! Its no easy task but I'm getting a little help. Is that cheating? Lol

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Jim Eshelman

@Daegal said

"Its no easy task but I'm getting a little help. Is that cheating? Lol"

There's a traditional saying in the Mysteries: It's best to do it yourself... second best if it's done by somebody who loves you... and, if necessary, it's OK to pay to have it done.

Kinda like sex.

Jason R

@Jim Eshelman said

"
@Daegal said
"Its no easy task but I'm getting a little help. Is that cheating? Lol"

There's a traditional saying in the Mysteries: It's best to do it yourself... second best if it's done by somebody who loves you... and, if necessary, it's OK to pay to have it done.

Kinda like sex. "

Lol! Awesome! Well someone who loves me so im in second catagory! im sure my girlfriend will have nightmares of gold thread though while i sleep comfortably happy lol.