Opiates and the psychic connection
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@Avshalom Binyamin said
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"I've declared war on all those f-cking little molecules that have kept me enslaved--and that is the "real" realization: enslavement of any kind, from crack to candy, is a direct intrusion upon one's True Will. Knowing this, I see this as an ordeal of initiation."This made me smile. We're all "addicts" to something or other, and your sentiment feels very empowering."
Let us not forget the whole reason Nature put these things here for us -- to EVOLVE. I wouldn't go declare war on a substance put here to evolve me more than I'd go declare war on Typhon while I was in the Astral and try to mock all of his demons.
"Our ancestors learned to make use of lightning, shall we run from a packet of powder?" -A. Crowley on The Big Lion. (Those of us who Know)
I do understand the hatred that can build up with a human being not knowing why they do something or why they have the impulses to do it, but as our Master Therion teaches us as do the sages, you flow with these things and learn to make them your weapon, not make "war" upon them.
Now when you say make "war" on prescription drugs, you may very well mean subconsciously, almost consciously, the ones that are not natural and that nature did NOT put here, but scientists have bastardized from nature to rattle people a bit more and in a much cheaper way than the natural opiates do.
Take morphine or codeine.. even heroin, they flow through the body and feel like natural pure rain water and the tide of the sea.
Take oxy or hydrocodone, or methadone, many synthetic opiates: they feel like a disgusting, false-clean, dopeyness smacks you in the brain and leaves you stupified.
Now I will go very far as to say that the opium poppy was put here for men to learn to love, learn to come through the worst pain and conquer each other over the span of history and learn to come to grips with the horrible sorrow that is Malkuth reality.
The pills, not so much.
Just my two cents, from years and years of experience. If I had declared war on poppies or opiates, I couldn't enjoy a cup of pod every now and then. This contrasts like heaven and hell to how I used to treat myself and heroin with me. We grow, we evolve, we keep all our old friends and commune with them from time to time. Just like human contact and communication, too much is too much.
You should even have the cold and darkness as your friends by now, my experienced Brother.
Just enough is just right. You will know when you start hurting yourself on purpose. When it goes from drinking a cup of tea to having to have one to get up. When it goes from having to have a cup of opium in the morning to popping pills or shooting heroin, one should know one has really fallen far from the Tree of Life and their true path and Will.
Work for nature the way she works for you. Always treat her with the utmost respect, worship, and admiration. Never take her for granted or abuse her, or she will show you Love more tough than any human ever could.
Peace and Power to you all.
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*Let us not forget the whole reason Nature put these things here for us -- to EVOLVE. I wouldn't go declare war on a substance put here to evolve me more than I'd go declare war on Typhon while I was in the Astral and try to mock all of his demons. *
I think that plants were able to be expressed in Nature, in a much different way then evolution, Nature can produce anything, at any time regardless of humanities idea of linear time and supposed laws of evolution.
But I think I am pretty firm in the belief that a long time ago, some ones ancestors manipulated the addictive qualities for their benefit.
Which I suppose is forcing humanity to learn how to make healthy choices, which is appropriate for this aeon, and that may in some profound way
change our nature...but....I can think of a million other ways to achieve the same goal with out the devastation of the cycles and circles of addiction at it's basest. -
@ThelemicMage said
"Take morphine or codeine.. even heroin, they flow through the body and feel like natural pure rain water and the tide of the sea.
Take oxy or hydrocodone, or methadone, many synthetic opiates: they feel like a disgusting, false-clean, dopeyness smacks you in the brain and leaves you stupified.
Now I will go very far as to say that the opium poppy was put here for men to learn to love, learn to come through the worst pain and conquer each other over the span of history and learn to come to grips with the horrible sorrow that is Malkuth reality.
The pills, not so much.
Just my two cents, from years and years of experience. If I had declared war on poppies or opiates, I couldn't enjoy a cup of pod every now and then. This contrasts like heaven and hell to how I used to treat myself and heroin with me. We grow, we evolve, we keep all our old friends and commune with them from time to time. Just like human contact and communication, too much is too much.
You should even have the cold and darkness as your friends by now, my experienced Brother."
That's fine but (1) the OP of this thread is about being on Suboxone, which is used to treat opium addiction (2) I've watched you repeatedly bring up "natural" opiates in unrelated threads (3) it's almost always using the same rationalization language you've used here. I know there's probably little to no point in arguing with you about it, but I'm just pointing it out for other readers.
Yes, it is possible to use drugs for recreation/spirituality without coming to harm. But if you've frequently and recently taken a drug that's known to be addictive, it's impossible for me to know that it's not an addiction speaking through you.
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I'd like to close this discussion--on my part at least--with the following statements:
1.) I became habituated to prescription opiates after a car accident in October 2010. This habituation eventually reached a point at which I found it was not only difficult, but physically and psychologically painful to cease usage.
2.) Partly out of curiosity, partly as an example, I abrubtly stopped opiate use as of 10 days ago. All the classic symptoms of withdrawal have been identified and experienced. These symptoms peaked around day 5 and still continue to a lesser extent.
3.) We need not go into details, but suffice it to say that my usage--though legal and monitored by a doctor--was in direct opposition to my True Will. One might say that my "psychic connection" and ability to enact even the most simple principles of Magick was hampered by dependency. Realizing that dependency of any kind is a detriment to one's Will, I undertook what has been a very painful (though deliberate) experience.
4.) To reach a state of Power, as I unerstand it, one must overcome the illusion of Suffering. Thus, in terms of Power and Will ("Power" being one's ability to enact Will), those most able to overcome themselves are most capable of utilizing their True Will. It is in the crucible that the Grail is forged.
5.) My understanding of this matter has been formed through bitter experience. This experience is relative and, in essence, irrelevant. Suffice it to say that I do not wish this experience on anyone--however, for those who are called, I can say that to overcome the cycle of addiction one must eradicate the very root of this addiction. Personally, this involved not only a change of Habit, but an alteration of my entire being and worldview. Addiction is a symptom, not the disease.
6.) In closing, I may mention that Habit is Choronzon's minion. This demon takes many forms; overcome it, and you overcome your self (lowercase "s") and enter into communion with your True Will.
Edit: I'll post once more when symptoms have ceased, though this may be a while considering the length of usage. Those interested in details or in need of advice are welcome to PM me, as I have little interest in continuing with a subject that has been belabored ad naseum. (To wit: I really don't give a sh-t anymore.
)Du courage!
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@Avshalom Binyamin said
"That's fine but (1) the OP of this thread is about being on Suboxone, which is used to treat opium addiction "
To make this clear for anyone who is unaware, the main ingredient in Suboxone IS AN OPIATE.
It does not treat the addiction, it works as a temporary replacement.
This is because the opiate in Suboxone ,while powerful, functions differently and does not provide as acute an euphoria as other opiates. -
Thanks for clarifying.
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@ThelemicMage said
"I wouldn't go declare war on a substance put here to evolve me more than I'd go declare war on Typhon while I was in the Astral and try to mock all of his demons."
This post helped me today. I haven't had any sugar and I've been feeling miserable. Obviously sugar withdraw isn't in the same class as what the OP is going through. Reading the above reminded me of the verses in Liber LXV: *Then I said: O my beloved, O Lord Adonai, I pray thee to loosen the coils of the serpent! But she was closed fast upon me, so that my Force was stayed in its inception. * That reminded me of an OSHO FB post I read last week: The only problem with sadness, desperateness, anger, hopelessness, anxiety, anguish, misery, is that you want to get rid of them. That’s the only barrier......whatsoever is the case is the case. Accept it and let it come – let it come in front of you. In fact just to say "do not repress" is not enough. If you allow me, I would like to say, "Befriend it."
Befriending the way I feel when I'm miserable is a new concept I'm trying out today.
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@Dar es Alrah said
"...a sense of well-being and general happiness..."
That is generally the feeling people seek, whether through drugs, spirituality, a family...
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@Dar es Alrah said
"I love the effect of Rhodiola Rosea (Golden Root) - because it stimulates the production of natural opiates in the brain. You don't exactly get high on it, but it definitely promotes a sense of well-being and general happiness that is quite conducive to ... well - living. lol.
"I love the effect of singing and dancing......
And I don't need any cash to buy more, I just put on a new song
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I understand exactly what people on this thread are trying to say about me and nature and my love of plants, animals, and anything that helps me recognize myself from it's parts in the parts in nature.
I will say only one last thing..
"The drugs were indeed revealed."
I mean the man wrote books on just the subject, many destroyed, like the cactus book on peyote, one of his favorites.
I doubt our lady Nuit would reveal drugs produced by her and her perfect Nature and our Mother Gaia that had been tampered with by someone's ancestors for addictive qualities.
Just saying.. it even took him years to come to terms with using those that were revealed, even to the point of losing his live over one of them because it was used for mainly medicinal purposes and maybe not entirely to Nuit. "Always unto me.. unto me." Once that is realized, drugs, people, food, drink, anything you do cannot and will not harm you.
I don't know who would need more convincing of that.
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As of now it is 14 days since my last dose.
It took 12 days before I lost the "burning sandpaper" feeling. Days 1-5 were the worst. As of now I am at 90% capacity. The only symptoms remaining are insomnia and irritability from time to time.
My doctor(s) prescribed me mainly oxycodone, diazepam, dextroamphetamine, and for a time I was prescribed methadone as well. For some reason the doctors in this area find methadone to be an effective analgesic (screw that!) The post-acute phase of methadone is Hell. I stopped taking everything at once two weeks ago. I had the brilliant idea of attempting to kick the opiate habit with an ill-timed mass dose of amphetamines (150+ milligrams). This I do not advise. The only intoxicants I've used over the past two weeks have been cannabis and an occasional Scotch whiskey.
My opiate use peaked at around 150-200 milligrams a day over the course of two years. Late December and January of this year I was clean, but I relapsed at the first opportunity. This last Thursday was the first day I felt "well" again. I would say the most effective aspect of my detox routine was the fact that I attacked my problem on all fronts (mental, spiritual, emotional), changed my friends, lifestyle, personal goals, and so forth. If one doesn't integrate oneself on all levels, it is rather useless to undertake any major change.
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@Veronica said
"But I think I am pretty firm in the belief that a long time ago, some ones ancestors manipulated the addictive qualities for their benefit. "
Can you provide any links about this? This is a very interesting subject.
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"I doubt our lady Nuit would reveal drugs produced by her and her perfect Nature and our Mother Gaia that had been tampered with by someone's ancestors for addictive qualities. "
I think either I did not articulate myself well, or you didn't understand me.
When I read your post, I will admit that your choice of words rubbed me as someone who believes that Nature is for humans to do with as they please. You choice of words were almost identical to words I have heard come from people who have IMO exploited and misused natural resources.
But that could have just been my misunderstanding.
I was trying to articulate that these drugs you espouse, came about long before humans, and the properties you adore are actually beneficial to the plant and it's ecosystem.
The fact that you get high off them is IMO just like a pretty bow on top of a present, a nice bonus and a lovely touch.
I also was attempting to share with you that I have a firm belief that human ancestors, a long time ago knew about the Bonus properties, and like the bully on the playground, or the sweat shop operator, figured out that some people really need to be controlled, some really need a hand, and some are to smart and should be squashed down and sedated so that they don't interfer with the fantastic production of civilization.
I am sorry I don't understand the rest of your post, I think you are referencing AC, but IDK. I personally think it is utter BS to think that you need to consume a substance to alter your mind, expand you heart, or get light and lovey. But that's me, I have a unique composition, and a highly active pituitary gland which can secret all the nature dope I may need.I believe that drug dealers are the second oldest professionals......
And Vlad, I am sorry I don't have any links to quick little reads about how I came to this belief. I have studied sociology, history, psychology as well as botany and chemistry. I can provide books if you are so inclined.
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@Dar es Alrah said
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@Veronica said
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@Dar es Alrah said
"I love the effect of Rhodiola Rosea (Golden Root) - because it stimulates the production of natural opiates in the brain. You don't exactly get high on it, but it definitely promotes a sense of well-being and general happiness that is quite conducive to ... well - living. lol."I love the effect of singing and dancing......
And I don't need any cash to buy more, I just put on a new song"It must be nice to have a brain that doesn't require additional supplements to maintain it's natural level of opiates. However - I've just accepted that my brain produces less of these natural opiates and that I do need to supplement for that if I wish to embrace a better emotional balance.
And when I do... then a new song will do it for me too."I didn't use to,
I had to work a long time,I didn't realize how unique my chemistry was until last month when my mother died five times, and a host of other crazy stuff happened and I hardly missed a beat.
I must say though, you truly are remarkable in your own self understanding and mastery, to know that about onesself and find healthy ways to achieve balance is a gift, and you are blessed!
Kudos to you dear Sister, may we someday dance to the same band!
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@Veronica said
"And Vlad, I am sorry I don't have any links to quick little reads about how I came to this belief. I have studied sociology, history, psychology as well as botany and chemistry. I can provide books if you are so inclined."
I am inclined to books the day I can afford them. I am sure you have studied the subject.
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I think it depends on the user, and the setting the substance is used in. I believe when you take a substance in it does change your internal world and your magick will reflect that shift.
In some mystery schools substance use is a tool used to elicit an experience inside of the person in order to 'program' their mind, to instill the connections needed to use the model in question. some magick arrays and rituals are exclusive to the mystery schools that use them regardless of how popular they are because as a pre-req you need to go through the proper initiations in order to build the internal understanding and connection to the symbols to use them, certain emotional states and states of consciousness can be bound to certain symbols through ritual and substances are useful to aid in this, but it's largely a matter of personal and community discretion for the most part.
So yes, I do think substances do have a place in magick.
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@Frater Tenc said
"I've been on the opioid maintanence drug Suboxone for months now, and I was on it when I first got "into" magick. Over the past 5 days or so I've begun to lower the dose. I've noticed quite a bit of fatigue and achiness, but also a peculiar lack of feeling in my rituals. Even my tarot cards feel empty, like regular playing cards. It's hard for me to now "feel" when I have to stop shuffling and I'm finding the readings lack accuracy. Perhaps a daily dose of opiate actually strengthens one's connection with the divine? Just looking for opinions on this. I think Crowley did write that marijuana and opiates can strengthen one's energies as far as this sort of thing is concerned.
93
93/93"
I think that AC would be fascinated by the work of Rick Strassman, who has given us a brilliant resource in his book on his work. DMT the spirit molecule. I encourage anyone who has spiritual inclinations to try and understand what his studies imply to spiritual workings, and magical rituals, of any and all sorts.
I heard of this work from another Mastet Rupert Sheldrake, and it has been one of the most interesting works I have read since Bruce Liptons Biology of Belief.
The most awesomely interesting thing, was that right after I read this book, my mother went into cardiac arrest, respiratory failure and died due to severe opiate withdrawal. The Grass she had Ben smoking, for years was laced with opiates, so she had no idea.
DMT can be found in the fluids in lungs, and my mother was having severe fluid retention issues, and was expelling horrendous amounts of the most noxious phlegm. The room literally reaked like a bong, just from her exhalations. At this point, she has discussed with me the influx of hallucinations she was having, and attests to there realness.
My heart broke what felt like a million times as I watched her go through withdrawal from opiates. Thankfully she doesn't recall much of all that, nor all the death.
I realize that each persons capacity is unique, and some people have more or less. But I feel like that is a cop out in a way. Because I know from my own experiences that any human body can be maintained, and kept in good condition if care is used. Care in the choices each person makes, in what they consume, on all levels.
I have hope that each person may someday want what is their birthright, to be happy naturally and simply. I beleive that every desire can be fulfilled.
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I had the good fortune to play around with 5-MeO-DMT before it was scheduled. It really is a beautiful molecule, and what's more--it can be found on various species of "psychoactive toads." DMT is the quintessence of what some would term the "psychedelic experience,' though, in fact, every experience is a psychedelic experience. It isn't for the faint of heart, but I've always been of the opinion that DMT and its analogues are best administered via IV. Anybody remember the scenes in Star Wars where they go into hyperdrive? That's a fairly good approximation of the effects one feels after administering the "God molecule" directly into the bloodstream. Lift off!
Ah, those were the days. Now I am what society would call "clean," as in "drug free." This means I consume only socially accepted intoxicants like beer, nicotine, and ice cream. Now, instead of waking up and getting high, I spend my time eating large amounts of chocolate, going on nature walks, making phone calls to my mother and other sundry family members, and composing orchestral works for bass guitar and zither. Looking back on those years of self-imposed isolation, I cannot but wonder why I ever stooped so low as to fill my life with the evil, parasitic monotony of addiction. Why did I ever poison myself in such a manner? Was it to escape inner turmoil, or maybe the anguish of a broken childhood?
Or maybe, just perhaps, getting high is a great way to kill time!
Just kidding, kids. Stay in school.
Day 20 or something. Still sober. Well, except for the empty wine bottle on the coffee table.
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@Veronica said
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"I doubt our lady Nuit would reveal drugs produced by her and her perfect Nature and our Mother Gaia that had been tampered with by someone's ancestors for addictive qualities. "I think either I did not articulate myself well, or you didn't understand me.
When I read your post, I will admit that your choice of words rubbed me as someone who believes that Nature is for humans to do with as they please. You choice of words were almost identical to words I have heard come from people who have IMO exploited and misused natural resources.
But that could have just been my misunderstanding.
I was trying to articulate that these drugs you espouse, came about long before humans, and the properties you adore are actually beneficial to the plant and it's ecosystem.
The fact that you get high off them is IMO just like a pretty bow on top of a present, a nice bonus and a lovely touch.
I also was attempting to share with you that I have a firm belief that human ancestors, a long time ago knew about the Bonus properties, and like the bully on the playground, or the sweat shop operator, figured out that some people really need to be controlled, some really need a hand, and some are to smart and should be squashed down and sedated so that they don't interfer with the fantastic production of civilization.
I am sorry I don't understand the rest of your post, I think you are referencing AC, but IDK. I personally think it is utter BS to think that you need to consume a substance to alter your mind, expand you heart, or get light and lovey. But that's me, I have a unique composition, and a highly active pituitary gland which can secret all the nature dope I may need.I believe that drug dealers are the second oldest professionals......
And Vlad, I am sorry I don't have any links to quick little reads about how I came to this belief. I have studied sociology, history, psychology as well as botany and chemistry. I can provide books if you are so inclined."
I am sorry if I rubbed you the wrong way. I did used to be one of those people to abuse nature.
In fact, that was the plan for me. To eat away at a very tasty part of nature until I felt like I had hurt enough/felt enough/learned enough and didn't need it anymore.
Please understand, some people do opiates for decades before they come to the understanding.. but most of them do not practice Magick or meditation.
The effects I "adore" happen to be the fact that I haven't aged much in ten years, and in the past few years of not using habitually. Crowley goes into this a bit, but it's documented that Opiates keep one from aging. It's the human's responsiblity, if one goes this route, to figure out how to do this on their own.
That's the entire evolutionary process of herbal sacraments.
Did you know that when humans were first here, before they were slaves for mining and whatnot, they couldn't talk or communicate or take orders.
Psychedelic mushrooms were introduced and the language centers grew, the monkeys evolved, and then were smart enough to work and take orders, and eventually smart enough to rebel.
Believe me, it's all too often I hear people speak of these things and I hear the darkness trying to break though and influence negatively.
It has taken me years to break through such darkness. I feel the "darkness" that pervades me now is for others' protection, like the ape of Thoth.
Have phun, Kids. And remember, always unto our sacred Lady Nuit of the Stars!!
Anything else, and you're gonna have a trashcan full of vomit or something else nasty somewhere near you sometime soon. (Alcohol, Opiates, Coke, you name it.)