The Knowledge and Conversation ... then what?
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Although we know there's much more in the A∴A∴ system after the Knowledge and Conversation (5 more Sephiroth and that little gap in the tree
there's one thing I keep wondering.What happens to your relationship with the HGA after the Convocation period is over?
I know that Crowley had to "repeat" the operation (John St. John), and obviously it went much more quickly (13 days? goodness!). But what does it really mean?
Is the HGA like a teacher, and although Its instructions can be applicable in the rest of life, is it really like "Well, I only communicate clearly with my HGA when I undertake this big magical operation, and the rest of the time, I'm sort of on my own"? Does that mean Crowley and his HGA didn't communicate -- at least, any better than any of us usually get, dimly and in little subtle hints -- between the events in China and the events in JSJ?
Once you've done the Operation, do those "little subtle hints" become more frequent and less subtle?
I'm really trying to understand just what the K&C does in terms of the ongoing, consistent maintenance of the union between Angel and Adept. Abramelin claims that as long as you maintain the Temple, you can enjoy the communion with the Angel every single week thereafter, but I can think of no mention by Crowley or any other Adept of such a routine enjoyment.
Comments?
--Shawn
"If I may:
I feel this thread is refreshing and rather authentic, as sharing of our experiences has occurred. Quite dissimilar from usual dry Kaballah and gematria math."I agree. I have not accomplished K&C yet. I'm aspiring to. And it's a breath of fresh air to be in the company of those who have. The experience of this particular thread has been like no other. I feel linked to all of you on a level that I can't explain. It's really great. Thank you all for your courage, perseverance and generosity.
-
Although we know there's much more in the A∴A∴ system after the Knowledge and Conversation (5 more Sephiroth and that little gap in the tree
there's one thing I keep wondering.What happens to your relationship with the HGA after the Convocation period is over?
I know that Crowley had to "repeat" the operation (John St. John), and obviously it went much more quickly (13 days? goodness!). But what does it really mean?
Is the HGA like a teacher, and although Its instructions can be applicable in the rest of life, is it really like "Well, I only communicate clearly with my HGA when I undertake this big magical operation, and the rest of the time, I'm sort of on my own"? Does that mean Crowley and his HGA didn't communicate -- at least, any better than any of us usually get, dimly and in little subtle hints -- between the events in China and the events in JSJ?
Once you've done the Operation, do those "little subtle hints" become more frequent and less subtle?
I'm really trying to understand just what the K&C does in terms of the ongoing, consistent maintenance of the union between Angel and Adept. Abramelin claims that as long as you maintain the Temple, you can enjoy the communion with the Angel every single week thereafter, but I can think of no mention by Crowley or any other Adept of such a routine enjoyment.
Comments?
--Shawn
@Jim Eshelman said
"It was a 93-day process (or, rather, ripening the dawn after 93 days). Neither VIII nor Abramelin was exactly followed (though both were consulted). It was planned for 93 days from the beginning."
Thanks.
"One entire large segment is left out completely. It was the space I thought I could allocate for that Black Pearl issue."
Understood, no problem at all. What is there is enormously helpful, just raised a couple more questions. I would love to see a lot more, but I know just from the contents of my own mind how much there is I would love to get written down, edited, etc. and not enough time to do it all. I can't imagine how it is after all your years in the "business", plus having material from your lineage predecessors to work with as well!
"LOL, like delivery of a baby?
Read Day 83, for example."looks back to see which day 83 was
Ah yes, the "I feel I'm finished but should finish formally" day. That leaped out at me on first reading.
(BTW, I was born one week premature, and while my mother was in the hospital for a final check-up anyhow, so why shouldn't my Angel be born a week premature when I'm in the Temple for an invocation?
"Going from memory, once the temple was set up and consecrated (by the formulae used to consecrate the Vault of the Adepts),"
Hmm, I think I've read of someone else's HGA temple consecrated thusly ... this Proserpinus guy sounds awfully familiar!
Your outline of Ritual ש was actually not too shocking; it tells me that my own judgement of how one might construct such a ritual at this point is not entirely crazy. Thanks.
Also yes, the Scholion on G/Gg in Samekh was fantastic in reference to my previous questions. Maybe I should just go away for a few weeks and re-read my Crowley library cover-to-cover and answer my own questions.
...
As for the others who've spoken on the authenticity/content of this thread, I can safely say that registering for this forum, though I did it just a day ago, was evidently long overdue and exactly what my heavenly doctor ordered.
93! -
Although we know there's much more in the A∴A∴ system after the Knowledge and Conversation (5 more Sephiroth and that little gap in the tree
there's one thing I keep wondering.What happens to your relationship with the HGA after the Convocation period is over?
I know that Crowley had to "repeat" the operation (John St. John), and obviously it went much more quickly (13 days? goodness!). But what does it really mean?
Is the HGA like a teacher, and although Its instructions can be applicable in the rest of life, is it really like "Well, I only communicate clearly with my HGA when I undertake this big magical operation, and the rest of the time, I'm sort of on my own"? Does that mean Crowley and his HGA didn't communicate -- at least, any better than any of us usually get, dimly and in little subtle hints -- between the events in China and the events in JSJ?
Once you've done the Operation, do those "little subtle hints" become more frequent and less subtle?
I'm really trying to understand just what the K&C does in terms of the ongoing, consistent maintenance of the union between Angel and Adept. Abramelin claims that as long as you maintain the Temple, you can enjoy the communion with the Angel every single week thereafter, but I can think of no mention by Crowley or any other Adept of such a routine enjoyment.
Comments?
--Shawn
I've been appreciating this thread as well. It has provided some new insights into the what and why of what may be the next step for me.
Having no knowledge of grades or a path of progress in the past, and after years of "Jesus bhakti," I determined to take every experience as a particular dealing of the Divine with my soul. Regardless of my ignorance, this determination seems to have "taken" in me and altered my experience of reality, for better AND worse. (No, I am not attempting to claim any Latin-titled degree - I'm speaking from my personal experience alone.)
I'm theorizing here, but I think I generated that kind of "taking every experience etc.." experience of reality for myself without understanding and without the guiding and focusing element of K&C, and it's been messy.
It seems to me that if I now work to give the appropriate focus to what has been ...forgive my grasping language... a far too global(?) experience of this kind of ummm... intuitive ability(?), then I might achieve the much more linear(?), guided kind of experience that seems to be associated with K&C.
That being said, I'm also terrified of jacking with my head anymore than I have. There's a lot of resistance.
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Although we know there's much more in the A∴A∴ system after the Knowledge and Conversation (5 more Sephiroth and that little gap in the tree
there's one thing I keep wondering.What happens to your relationship with the HGA after the Convocation period is over?
I know that Crowley had to "repeat" the operation (John St. John), and obviously it went much more quickly (13 days? goodness!). But what does it really mean?
Is the HGA like a teacher, and although Its instructions can be applicable in the rest of life, is it really like "Well, I only communicate clearly with my HGA when I undertake this big magical operation, and the rest of the time, I'm sort of on my own"? Does that mean Crowley and his HGA didn't communicate -- at least, any better than any of us usually get, dimly and in little subtle hints -- between the events in China and the events in JSJ?
Once you've done the Operation, do those "little subtle hints" become more frequent and less subtle?
I'm really trying to understand just what the K&C does in terms of the ongoing, consistent maintenance of the union between Angel and Adept. Abramelin claims that as long as you maintain the Temple, you can enjoy the communion with the Angel every single week thereafter, but I can think of no mention by Crowley or any other Adept of such a routine enjoyment.
Comments?
--Shawn
@Al-Shariyf said
"
I agree. I have not accomplished K&C yet. I'm aspiring to. And it's a breath of fresh air to be in the company of those who have. The experience of this particular thread has been like no other. I feel linked to all of you on a level that I can't explain. It's really great. Thank you all for your courage, perseverance and generosity."And thank you for your openness.
To me, it always rejuvenates my wonder when I hear experiences of others. It is boring to read the dry intellectual stuff. Anyway...
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Although we know there's much more in the A∴A∴ system after the Knowledge and Conversation (5 more Sephiroth and that little gap in the tree
there's one thing I keep wondering.What happens to your relationship with the HGA after the Convocation period is over?
I know that Crowley had to "repeat" the operation (John St. John), and obviously it went much more quickly (13 days? goodness!). But what does it really mean?
Is the HGA like a teacher, and although Its instructions can be applicable in the rest of life, is it really like "Well, I only communicate clearly with my HGA when I undertake this big magical operation, and the rest of the time, I'm sort of on my own"? Does that mean Crowley and his HGA didn't communicate -- at least, any better than any of us usually get, dimly and in little subtle hints -- between the events in China and the events in JSJ?
Once you've done the Operation, do those "little subtle hints" become more frequent and less subtle?
I'm really trying to understand just what the K&C does in terms of the ongoing, consistent maintenance of the union between Angel and Adept. Abramelin claims that as long as you maintain the Temple, you can enjoy the communion with the Angel every single week thereafter, but I can think of no mention by Crowley or any other Adept of such a routine enjoyment.
Comments?
--Shawn
@Jim Eshelman said
"I'm curious how you're using the word "enlightenment." I normally think of that as representing a stage significantly earlier than the K&C. I imagine this is a semantics difference, though."
I'm using it in a sense that would be equivalent to being a Master of the Temple in magical terms.
93!
-
Although we know there's much more in the A∴A∴ system after the Knowledge and Conversation (5 more Sephiroth and that little gap in the tree
there's one thing I keep wondering.What happens to your relationship with the HGA after the Convocation period is over?
I know that Crowley had to "repeat" the operation (John St. John), and obviously it went much more quickly (13 days? goodness!). But what does it really mean?
Is the HGA like a teacher, and although Its instructions can be applicable in the rest of life, is it really like "Well, I only communicate clearly with my HGA when I undertake this big magical operation, and the rest of the time, I'm sort of on my own"? Does that mean Crowley and his HGA didn't communicate -- at least, any better than any of us usually get, dimly and in little subtle hints -- between the events in China and the events in JSJ?
Once you've done the Operation, do those "little subtle hints" become more frequent and less subtle?
I'm really trying to understand just what the K&C does in terms of the ongoing, consistent maintenance of the union between Angel and Adept. Abramelin claims that as long as you maintain the Temple, you can enjoy the communion with the Angel every single week thereafter, but I can think of no mention by Crowley or any other Adept of such a routine enjoyment.
Comments?
--Shawn
@Frater INRI said
"
@Swamiji said
"In my own case, I attained to the HGA some 13 years ago, and it was quite easy to connect to my HGA after that, but I largely avoided doing so for ages; curiously it was only in the last few years, after awakening, that there has been a burst of "communion" and activity going on, a kind of interaction at all three levels.
93!"93
Yes. It is also my experience that, ummm, "intensity of communion" varies.
It is interesting to me that the most important things were learned not by listening to HGA's influences, but by living: some lessons can not be just learned, they must be lived to be understood.I had no problem connecting with Him. It all happened in the light of Samadhi, no problems whatsoever. I am glad I have learned to trust and listen to Him, however.
If I may:
I feel this thread is refreshing and rather authentic, as sharing of our experiences has occurred. Quite dissimilar from usual dry Kaballah and gematria math.93 93/93"
I agree that this thread is refreshing; and also with the comments you made above re. "lessons must be lived". In one sense, it would have been utterly impossible for me to do the kind of work I'm doing now right after the K&C; what happened instead was that immediately after the K&C I was propelled into a series of fundamentally life-changing events, which I think were undoubtedly a product of a greater clarity that broke through all kinds of barriers as a result of having done the K&C work. Only after all of this had passed did a more literal kind of communion become commonplace.
Again, I certainly could have engaged in regular conversation with the HGA at almost any time, and did on rare occasion, it was just something that rarely even came up and did not become a regular thing until much later.
93!
-
Although we know there's much more in the A∴A∴ system after the Knowledge and Conversation (5 more Sephiroth and that little gap in the tree
there's one thing I keep wondering.What happens to your relationship with the HGA after the Convocation period is over?
I know that Crowley had to "repeat" the operation (John St. John), and obviously it went much more quickly (13 days? goodness!). But what does it really mean?
Is the HGA like a teacher, and although Its instructions can be applicable in the rest of life, is it really like "Well, I only communicate clearly with my HGA when I undertake this big magical operation, and the rest of the time, I'm sort of on my own"? Does that mean Crowley and his HGA didn't communicate -- at least, any better than any of us usually get, dimly and in little subtle hints -- between the events in China and the events in JSJ?
Once you've done the Operation, do those "little subtle hints" become more frequent and less subtle?
I'm really trying to understand just what the K&C does in terms of the ongoing, consistent maintenance of the union between Angel and Adept. Abramelin claims that as long as you maintain the Temple, you can enjoy the communion with the Angel every single week thereafter, but I can think of no mention by Crowley or any other Adept of such a routine enjoyment.
Comments?
--Shawn
@Swamiji said
"
@Jim Eshelman said
"I'm curious how you're using the word "enlightenment." I normally think of that as representing a stage significantly earlier than the K&C. I imagine this is a semantics difference, though."I'm using it in a sense that would be equivalent to being a Master of the Temple in magical terms."
Thanks fior clarifying. - Normally "enlightenment" is used in English to refer to a particular effect on the intellect, especially the liberating of it from dominion of the reactive elements of Nephesh.
But I know this has other spins, especially in the East, so thanks for clarifying your use.
-
Although we know there's much more in the A∴A∴ system after the Knowledge and Conversation (5 more Sephiroth and that little gap in the tree
there's one thing I keep wondering.What happens to your relationship with the HGA after the Convocation period is over?
I know that Crowley had to "repeat" the operation (John St. John), and obviously it went much more quickly (13 days? goodness!). But what does it really mean?
Is the HGA like a teacher, and although Its instructions can be applicable in the rest of life, is it really like "Well, I only communicate clearly with my HGA when I undertake this big magical operation, and the rest of the time, I'm sort of on my own"? Does that mean Crowley and his HGA didn't communicate -- at least, any better than any of us usually get, dimly and in little subtle hints -- between the events in China and the events in JSJ?
Once you've done the Operation, do those "little subtle hints" become more frequent and less subtle?
I'm really trying to understand just what the K&C does in terms of the ongoing, consistent maintenance of the union between Angel and Adept. Abramelin claims that as long as you maintain the Temple, you can enjoy the communion with the Angel every single week thereafter, but I can think of no mention by Crowley or any other Adept of such a routine enjoyment.
Comments?
--Shawn
-
Although we know there's much more in the A∴A∴ system after the Knowledge and Conversation (5 more Sephiroth and that little gap in the tree
there's one thing I keep wondering.What happens to your relationship with the HGA after the Convocation period is over?
I know that Crowley had to "repeat" the operation (John St. John), and obviously it went much more quickly (13 days? goodness!). But what does it really mean?
Is the HGA like a teacher, and although Its instructions can be applicable in the rest of life, is it really like "Well, I only communicate clearly with my HGA when I undertake this big magical operation, and the rest of the time, I'm sort of on my own"? Does that mean Crowley and his HGA didn't communicate -- at least, any better than any of us usually get, dimly and in little subtle hints -- between the events in China and the events in JSJ?
Once you've done the Operation, do those "little subtle hints" become more frequent and less subtle?
I'm really trying to understand just what the K&C does in terms of the ongoing, consistent maintenance of the union between Angel and Adept. Abramelin claims that as long as you maintain the Temple, you can enjoy the communion with the Angel every single week thereafter, but I can think of no mention by Crowley or any other Adept of such a routine enjoyment.
Comments?
--Shawn
@Swamiji said
"I agree that this thread is refreshing; and also with the comments you made above re. "lessons must be lived". In one sense, it would have been utterly impossible for me to do the kind of work I'm doing now right after the K&C; what happened instead was that immediately after the K&C I was propelled into a series of fundamentally life-changing events, which I think were undoubtedly a product of a greater clarity that broke through all kinds of barriers as a result of having done the K&C work. Only after all of this had passed did a more literal kind of communion become commonplace."
Almost the same thing happened to me. After HGA advent, I was for 3 or so months in total s**t. Karmic body has been cleansing and it was not easy.
LOL as I look at it now, it was a blessing really. No doubts there.
Completing the Aethyrs operation did help a lot. -
Although we know there's much more in the A∴A∴ system after the Knowledge and Conversation (5 more Sephiroth and that little gap in the tree
there's one thing I keep wondering.What happens to your relationship with the HGA after the Convocation period is over?
I know that Crowley had to "repeat" the operation (John St. John), and obviously it went much more quickly (13 days? goodness!). But what does it really mean?
Is the HGA like a teacher, and although Its instructions can be applicable in the rest of life, is it really like "Well, I only communicate clearly with my HGA when I undertake this big magical operation, and the rest of the time, I'm sort of on my own"? Does that mean Crowley and his HGA didn't communicate -- at least, any better than any of us usually get, dimly and in little subtle hints -- between the events in China and the events in JSJ?
Once you've done the Operation, do those "little subtle hints" become more frequent and less subtle?
I'm really trying to understand just what the K&C does in terms of the ongoing, consistent maintenance of the union between Angel and Adept. Abramelin claims that as long as you maintain the Temple, you can enjoy the communion with the Angel every single week thereafter, but I can think of no mention by Crowley or any other Adept of such a routine enjoyment.
Comments?
--Shawn
@Takamba said
"I use the word "enlightenment" to mean "removed from the burden of a load." (OH {****})"
On my planet, it means many things:
- normal laya and sabikalpa samadhi
- exalted nirbikapa samadhi and nerodi sammapati and in the end
- sahaja nirbikalpa samadhi, I guess equall to 10=1.
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Although we know there's much more in the A∴A∴ system after the Knowledge and Conversation (5 more Sephiroth and that little gap in the tree
there's one thing I keep wondering.What happens to your relationship with the HGA after the Convocation period is over?
I know that Crowley had to "repeat" the operation (John St. John), and obviously it went much more quickly (13 days? goodness!). But what does it really mean?
Is the HGA like a teacher, and although Its instructions can be applicable in the rest of life, is it really like "Well, I only communicate clearly with my HGA when I undertake this big magical operation, and the rest of the time, I'm sort of on my own"? Does that mean Crowley and his HGA didn't communicate -- at least, any better than any of us usually get, dimly and in little subtle hints -- between the events in China and the events in JSJ?
Once you've done the Operation, do those "little subtle hints" become more frequent and less subtle?
I'm really trying to understand just what the K&C does in terms of the ongoing, consistent maintenance of the union between Angel and Adept. Abramelin claims that as long as you maintain the Temple, you can enjoy the communion with the Angel every single week thereafter, but I can think of no mention by Crowley or any other Adept of such a routine enjoyment.
Comments?
--Shawn
@sk4p said
"
"Going from memory, once the temple was set up and consecrated (by the formulae used to consecrate the Vault of the Adepts),"Hmm, I think I've read of someone else's HGA temple consecrated thusly ... this Proserpinus guy sounds awfully familiar!
"That wouldn't be too unusual, BTW. Probably a majority of those who have been initiated and dedicated within an actual would do something similar.
Besides, Liber VIII says, "...if it be possible, let this invocation be performed in a temple prepared for the ritual of passing through the Tuat." That's the same thing.